Marisa Murgatroyd talks gamification and online course creation


>>GREG SMITH: Hello everyone
excited to have my guest here today who is a brand builder
for seven eight and even nine figure industry thought leaders. In addition she also coaches
and mentors thousands of emerging entrepreneurs helps
out horse creators just like you and through
her experience product master class helped people
create launch and deliver experienced products
and courses. Really excited to welcome
today a Marisa Murgatroyd. If you want a little bit
learn a little bit more about her and the things she’s up to. And also some are some
special offers which we’ll talk about later. Just for you for watching. Check out experience products
dot com slash thinkific welcome Marisa Great
to have you. And looking forward to chatting
just for every one here the things we’re
going be talking about today is really around students
success completion gamification goal setting
and really focusing on getting results for your
students and that’s something that Marisa
has a lot of expertise in. And so we wanted to bring
her in to share with you some of the great
knowledge and experience she has in helping thousands
of people to create results for their students. Welcome Marisa.>>MARISA MURGATROYD: Thank you so much
Greg. It’s really good to be here. It’s one of the things I love
talking about because so many people talk about marketing
but not a lot of people really focus on what happens
when people say yes what’s happened to people buy
how you actually support them and realizing everything
that you’ve promised. Because when you do that when
you deliver on your promises in a way
that people get excited about they get to become
customers for life. Your business will transform
but you also feel so much better about
selling and marketing what you do.>>GREG SMITH: Agreed yeah
and we see that is that where people have, statistically when people get
good course completion rates, and they’re more than that
the students actually get some results out
of the programs they’re taking as they, it drives the whole business
around the courses that people come back, they refer their friends, they leave great testimonials, they come back they repeat
work with you or repurchase. So really excited to dive
into this stuff, plus I really do think this is
probably the number one problem plaguing online
education or just education as a whole, is getting over
that motivation hump, and completion and getting
results for students and really a lot of wonderful
things happen when you do that. So I think one of the things
that You’re well-known for that we may as well just
dive into because I think it’s fun and exciting
for our audience especially is is gamification. You do some really cool things
and you shared a little bit of it with me use really cool
things around gamification so maybe if you want to share
how that’s working some of the cool things
that you’re doing how people can incorporate that into some
of the programs they’re doing. And maybe even starting off
with just a bit of how you see gamification because I know
some people here gamification and they think Mario Brothers
and you know video games but I know that’s
not exactly how it is.>>MARISA MURGATROYD: Yes
absolutely. So in terms of how I see
gamification and why apply it to this whole world
of online trainings and courses and programs
and information based product. Well first of all
if you just look at the industry of self paced
learning versus industry games and apps is selfpaced
learning has been down for three years in a row, and this past year
dropped 7 percent. Meanwhile Games and aps
is exploding as it’s grown 20 no 270 percent
in the last year alone. The game in an industry. So clearly one industry
is in decline and another is on the rise. And I think the reason is is
that right now we live in a world where all of human
knowledge is at our fingertips. One Google search away. So there’s so much information
and trying to give more people information more information. It’s kind of like giving
a drowning man a glass of water. Trying to save your life of the
glass of water. It just does not work. You say you’ve got to kind
of look at the trends in a world where there’s so much
information that people are saturated with information. This promise of more
information doesn’t work because information doesn’t
work to transform people’s lives. If it did we’d be living
in Google Topia. But instead what’s happened
is it’s been more of a Google pocalypse where
there’s more frustration, there’s more depression, there are more problems
in the world, and information just
isn’t solving those problems. So when I look at
gamification and why the industry is booming it’s not
just because of escapism. It’s not just because we’re
trying to get people to do silly things, but used to right
gamification is about working with human motivation. And understanding our
own psychological triggers and how we tick. So what gamification can
do gamification is applying the principles
that emerge in games to real world situation
outside of games. Is it can close that gap
between what people have to do and what they want to do. So when you can actually
close the gap between what people have to do
what they want to do you can actually set them
up to win the game of life. And you can make big
the challenges whether it’s finding a relationship, organizing your finances, you know making your first six
figures in business, whatever it happens to be
changing the way that you eat. Making that so much more
inspirational and a lot less obligatory. So actually motivated
and inspired every single day to do the work to take
massive action to get huge results and ultimately change
our lives and then want to buy from you over and over again.>>GREG SMITH: That’s
interesting about the decline. And so where do you see
that on the decline side because the we must be
if if if the industry is we must be doing something
right because I’m seeing on our end the course gets
more and more coarse creators more and more courses and an
actual increase in some of the things are doing
so maybe it is that we do have some gamification
built in and that element is working or is
that the overall sort of info product
industry that you see moving down.>>MARISA MURGATROYD: So these
numbers are from the overall Intel product industry. Now that doesn’t mean
that there are less people creating products because what
you’ll notice is a platforms like Coursera
and all of these platforms more and more people are coming
in with the promise of this leveraged income
source and wanting to reach masses of people
with their knowledge and expertise. But in terms of overall
sales overall sales are declining every single year. Right.>>GREG SMITH: That’s
and I think that that maybe that goes
to the student results side. We’ve we’ve always
had a really big focus on student results which is why
I love having this chat with you
because it’s super important for us. We’ve actually been seeing
our overall GMV or overall gross sales through
the platform usually tripling year over year. So it’s really. And even on an individual
cohort like people who joined in 2015 are selling
more in 2017 than they are in 2015
and so on across cohorts. But I think that comes back
to the fact that a lot of the older technologies
or older ways of thinking about things are really not
capturing some of the stuff that you and I and
we are building into our delivering
these things. So actually one thing I saw
that I sorry go ahead.>>MARISA MURGATROYD: along
those lines of the industry average
of people who purchase this kind of product
and actually complete it and get results is 3 percent. So an average of just 3
percent of people who buy these kinds of products
actually complete them and get results. That doesn’t mean that every
single person is created of course
or training is leaving all the people behind. But a lot of people
who are using more traditional methodology use
to create programs and courses are actually doing
a massive service for their clients. But that doesn’t mean
it has to be that way because firstly our
business grew 50 percent last year. We primarily sell
courses in training. So what I see here is actually
a huge opportunity when you learn what we’re
talking about in this conversation. That you can stand out
to people who are not doing this stuff and actually
position yourself as someone who’s on her cutting edge
of online learning and online training and get
people super inspired to take action and hooked
on working with you. So there’s opportunity here.>>GREG SMITH: Definitely
and I’ve seen that in my own personal course I have a little
bit of it just a tiny amount of gamification
and I get, because of it, and since we’ve rolled it out
we get way better completion rates way
better students achieving their goals that they set
out to, and that means that for at
least for my course, the primary driver of new
customers for us is actually referrals
and testimonials and new people coming in. One thing, so in terms of like
the specifics of gamification and I know
you mentioned the gaming industry but I know we don’t
build in like actual video games into our
learning products, while some people do, we haven’t been doing that. I don’t think that that’s
not something you’re doing of actually putting games
and it’s more about building in surprise and incentive right.>>MARISA MURGATROYD: Well
there’s actually 10 core principles in the
experience formula that I talk about
that I would say nine of them come from games. Yeah. At least nine of them are used
in games not that they come from games because they’re
really universal principles of understanding what motivates
humans to learn understanding curriculum design understanding
adult learning habits so a lot of them are sharing in games
but also shared in other places. So nine of them, you can find find in games
and one of them you can not.>>GREG SMITH: Ok so what’s the what’s
one of those things. I mean for us one thing I look
at is actually creating a reward that is somewhat
unpredictable like in a video game you know you kill
an enemy and they drop some reward for you. Maybe it’s coins
or a magical item but you never really know
what that’s going to get. And that’s one of those
things that that unknown. It’s almost gambling to be
honest that that gets you going forward. But what’s one thing that you’re
incorporating on that list of nine of of things that you’re
incorporating and learning.>>MARISA MURGATROYD: Sure. Well one of them the first
principle is super important and it’s a principle of mission. So the principle of mission
is people know exactly what it’s going to take
for them to win the game. Basically what are they going
to do to the games. What are they going
to do to your program. Now that sounds. Obvious but most programs
and courses tend to be educational focused and not
an outcome or result focused. So we hope people get hyper
clear what the mission of their product is because if people
don’t understand what winning looks like then
they can’t win game. And that’s
incredibly motivating. So for example I created
a template for defining your product mission and it uses
and kind of swiped it from the Mission
Impossible movies series but I call it the mission
possible template. So it says this Your mission
should you choose to accept it is BLANK and when
you phrase your mission in that way it’s not not
what you want to give to your product
but it’s where people are going do, Be, feel, Have, overcome or achive. So for example fou or Experiance
Product master class it’s your mission
to you just accept it is to design, market, and make two thousand
dollars or a whole lot more from an experienced
product in ten weeks or less. So instantly you know exactly
what you’re going to do, you know exactly how
long it’s going to take, and you know why it matters, so a good mission
statement is binary in the sense that you have
either achieved it or you haven’t. Its a yes or no, black or white, on or off state. Which is very much
alive with games. So for example you look at
the mission of Candy Crush it’s not Worldchanging
but it’s basically line up three of candy. Right? Then it droppes down. It’s very clear exactly what you
need to do. When people don’t
have that clarity, they kind of go round in circles
and they’re not really sure what they should be doing, what they’re working on, what the actual goal is, and how it’s going to impact
their life in a very real way.>>GREG SMITH: So then do
you check in with them later on that mission. Is there a point where you touch
base on the mission. I mean I love having
that clairity and I think a lot of people
could learn from that even. Well two things do you do
check in later and also do you use that in
the marketing language? To me that’s actually been
in the market because I’m like oh now I know I’m signing
up for your program.>>MARISA MURGATROYD: So
the really interesting thing is a lot of these principles
can be applied to both marketing and delivery
of your program. So in the marketing simply
having mission where people are exactly where they’re
going get and what that means for them is super important, and so many programs just teach
say competence your skill building
or performance enhancement that there’s no measurable goal. If you can’t measure
it you can’t manage it. And people also don’t know
whether they’re on track. But then that becomes
the entire organizing principle for the whole program. When you have the mission
then the only thing that you want to include
in your program is anything that’s going to help
someone get from mission to mission accomplished. Anything else you just get rid
of which actually makes the product creation easier
because what happens as experts as we feel
the need to make this comprehensive omnibus
product that promises the sun the moon and the stars
and gives the world Right!? And people get overwhelmed
because they don’t need to know everything about your
topic they just need to know what’s going to give
them what they want to do which is the result of the
mission of the project. So it becomes the organizing
principle. So for example we have, as soon as people log on, it says the mission starts
in and when the mission starts it is a countdown timer. Then it says mission completes
and it is a countdown timer. And so they know how
much longer they have to complete the mission. And we’re constantly
reinforcing it throughout the program it’s not just
something we give them what’s at the beginning
but we’re constantly saying where they are in relationship
to mission accomplished. So here is accomplished
over here. This is the starting point. And there’s all these
differnt interim points because one of the other
principles is unstoppable momentum. So unstoppable momentum
is actually ramping people up from small simple
actions and wins to larger and larger actions and wins. So you’re structuring
the design of the program to allow people to build
momentum for example a game increases the challenge level 25
percentage each level, because people love to be
challenged and they aspire towards more but if they’re
so challenged like they’re dropped to the deep end of the
pool they start to get unmotivated and they give up. One or the other thing
as a game shows that if someone is on
an interface for longer than four seconds, doesn’t know exactly what to do, they start to feel stupid
and they emotionally disconnect. So if you have those moments
where people are spending a long time trying to figure
out what to do the emotionally disconnect from the process. So this idea of unstoppable
momentum, is based on how you actually
structure your program to create wins along the way
but ramp those wins up all the way from saying yes
to the mission to actually achieving the outcome
and removing the friction points along the way.>>GREG SMITH: And for everyone
watching if you’re interested in pursuing that mission
which I know a lot of you are experience
I mentioned earlier but
experienceproducts.com/thinkific and you can learn more about
that mission and how you can accomplish that with Marisa. So another interesting one
that I mentioned is surprise and I know you have
a few little surpise elemnets I don’t want to give
away all the surprises because that’s for people
to experience. But is there is there
something you can share around how you build
in sort of that surprise and delight element in there. I mean you have some really cool
almost special effects type things
that are occurring along the way. But how do you kind of look at
building in those elements of rewards and surprise
throughout the program.>>MARISA MURGATROYD: For sure. So experience number 6 in our
experance formula what I call peak emotional experiences. So essentially what games
are really good at is dropping people
into situations and kind of doing the surprise
rewards and just kind of changing the game
as you go through it. So peak emotional
experiences and these are the experiences
are something that people have a lot of times
in the discovery process. So if you can make learning
and discovery process and you can use things
like storytelling, multisensory language, like really immersing
people in the five senses, things like surprise
and delight, and really understanding
that you’re teaching to a whole human being and not
just to their brain. So much education based
on the kind of lecture style that we learned in many
of us experienced in school, is just teaching to a small
part of humans. But when you drop them
into a world where the story is there’s
emotion there is the five senses, there a surprise there
are things that are happening, just engaging more of the human. Because people don’t actually
learn just through books and just
through information. Like so many of us as children
we learned by having real world experiences, like trying things, and failing and That’s kind
of what really happened. So getting people involved
in the implementation very quickly and not just
the thinking in the mental processing but the actual
implementation is a huge part of it. Then kinda of creating
experiences where they’re not just learning something so let
me give you an example of this. This is something I actually
did at a live event. But you can do things
in your programs and your online trainings as well. So I wanted to teach people
this idea of a marketing offer creating an irresistible offer
that people want to say yes to. And I wanted to show
the difference between all of the challenges and objections
people had in their minds, and what it would take
to actually create an offer that’s compelling enough
that it tips the scales in the balance
of a yes rather than a no. So I created a whole tug
of war game on stage and the tables were going
against each other. So one person got up their
offer and would give me a compelling irresistible
reason to buy now which will be whether
it’s a bonus whether it’s a guarantee something
that creates a little bit of fear of missing out. And on the other side
the other team would give an objection to the offer
if the audience would raise thier flag if they actually
felt that the reason Buy now was compelling they would raise
you know green flags if it was just meh
they raised yellow flags if it was you know not
compelling at all they would have raised
orange flags. So if the person got
a majority green flags with the tug of war
rope on their side. The other people
are the objections if the room about the objection
was legitimate. They would do the flags
as well and then move the rope on their side. So the goal was to win to have
your offer out weigh all the objections and concerns
that people have to buying. So the whole room got
this physical understanding of how compelling
you really have to be in marketing to inspire
people to say yes. So that’s a way I created a peak
emotional experience. So whenever I’m teaching
something that’s really challenging or really
difficult to grasp intellectually i wrap up
an experience around it. So people can understand OK I
get it now not just because you’ve explained
it to me but because I’ve had this experience of the thing
that you’re talking about>>GREG SMITH: I love
that and I could see doing that even in the online
programs where you even just have that point
where you say hey stop here take what you’ve learned. Go and apply it in some
physical way of actually achieving some like doing one
of those steps along the way. Do you do too much. You know obviously I’m at live
setting you’ve got a whole bunch of people there
we can pull on the rope we can raise flags. Do you do much in the way
of either you know coaching or accountability or groups
or or creating something interaction amongst
students as they’re going through the program.>>MARISA MURGATROYD: Well Core
experience number 7 is loops. and Core expreance
number 8 is community. So you know we tend to do
both online training but also live group coaching
so for example in our experance product master class. We have 90 minute group
coaching calls on Monday Wednesday and Friday. But there are different
kinds of calls, so Monday is they get
access to me, on Wednesdays they are
in smaller coaching communities with 50
students to a coach. They get to know in smaller
communities their coach and get more personalized feedback
and then on Friday we have an implementation expert
there that helps them with the technology
and the technical implementation. So there are all these different
ways that people can engage with us with each other
and we have a huge Facebook group component as well where
they’re really getting to know each other and we host things
into the Facebook group on a regular basis for example
every Friday we drop leaderboards and we let
people know who’s at the top of the program in terms
of receiving what we called experance points which means
they’ve been taking actions and not just watching
the trainings but completely the actions
associated with those trainings. We also have two tracks
so we have a core track which is the essential
curriculum and we have an overachiever track so we
don’t want the people who just want to do the bare
minimum to feel like they’re comparing them selves against
the people they want to do absolutely everything possible. So we separate out the tracks
because you don’t want to create a system
that actually unintentionally dis — incentivizes some people
from doing the work. You want people to compare
themselves to people who are at a similar level
as them in not to people that are so far above them. So those are some of the things
that we do but that gives a lot of accountability
because every single week they know that we’re
going to be posting these. The the really cool thing
is because we understand where each person is in the program. We can run contests. So if people are starting
to drop behind say the third week of the program we run
what’s called a jump contest and we say anybody who ever
read jumps 20 points between now and Monday we’re going
to send you a T-shirt for example. And if you already
are at max points no worries you still
get the T-shirt. And so we sent hundreds
of t shirts around the world because of this. And people actually feel
so proud to wear these t shirts that they take
pictures of themselves and they post on a Facebook
group because they earn this thing. And the fact that we’re
incentivizing people to catch up from behind rather
than just being like you know you’re behind forget about it. And we also have a list
internal what we call Operation unengaged student
rescue campaign. So we physically reach out
via text message Facebook Messenger e-mail
to people who maybe have not logged in yet are falling
behind. So we actually go and reach out
to them. It’s super interesting
because one of her students Jennifer had completely
fallen behind in the first three or four weeks
of the program. And she said historically
she would have just disappeared.>>GREG SMITH: Given up.>>MARISA MURGATROYD: Walked
away and givin up because that’s what most
people do in those situations. Well we actually called
her and that inspired her to get back into the
program not for herself but because we cared
to do it for us. She ended up making 150,000
dollars in the 10 weeks of the program. And shortly thereafter another
hundred thousand so she did a quarter million dollars
and she was going to give up just because you
reached out to her. You know.>>GREG SMITH: What
was she teaching or what was she creating just.>>MARISA MURGATROYD: She
teaches a project management system like these. Yeah. So a very specific form
of project management system that she was teaching
to you know project managers all over the world basically. And she was getting
large corporate clients and then developing a system.>>GREG SMITH: I loved
the experience points concept just from my own high school
days of playing roleplaying games. But so I’m curious. And this I don’t think
it falls into your model from what I’ve seen but I am
curious as to your thoughts on it because we do occasionally
have customers asking for our clients asking
for this which is the concept of sort of control over progress
of the way it usually manifests. You know I don’t want someone
to access lesson 10 until they’ve finished lessons
1 through 9 things like that. Like you can’t do this until
you’ve done these things. Do you build that in or how
do you feel about that?>>MARISA MURGATROYD: Yeah, so we have a very set
curriculum schedule where we drop the curriculum
twice a week on Mondays and Thursdays at 11:59 p.m. Pacific.>>GREG SMITH: So it’s a time
based schedule that you’re releasing content
to regular schedule.>>MARISA MURGATROYD: The reason
we’re doing that in this particular
program it’s different in other programs is because
we have a whole group going together. And also what happens
is when we drop the new training they see a point gap
so they see OK you have 59 points. And there’s actually
80 points available now. So they see the gap in terms
of where they are. Now of course they have life
long access to the entire program. You know so they could go
back to it. But the reason why we really
want to keep the group going through it together. We do have other programs
where it’s a little bit different. You know I think
that that actually can make a lot of sense. It is an evergreen
program where people aren’t going to do together
and it’s completely self paced. then I think that that does
make sense.>>GREG SMITH: Yeah I appreciate
that. I’ve always struggled
with the blocking it to me it feels a bit like like I like
your way of doing it that sort of time
based hey we’ve just dropped you’re all part of a cohort
it keeps everybody on the same track otherwise
you have some people race ahead others fall behind
and it becomes harder to sort of motivate everyone
to move together as a community as you
were saying. When you have that sort
of Evergreen where anyone can access at any time I struggle
with the idea of you know it sort of feels to me like I’m
selling you a textbook and saying you can’t read
Chapter 10 until you read the first nine and some
people like to skip ahead. Out of interest. And maybe that’s what they. There are there is a time
in a place where I it’s sort of one of those I find things
where there’s there’s really good arguments both ways
and it kind of depends on the circumstances. But I like the way you’re
doing it with that time based drip scheduling essentially. Which is great.>>MARISA MURGATROYD: Yeah
totally. It’s interesting because people
are going to choose their own adventure. And I find that there’s
a fine balance when In other programs
and technologies and software that we built. What are we trying to say. “This” is exactly what to “do.” People kind of repell
against that a little bit what they want to feel
like they have a choice in the matter. And that’s kind of part
of teaching and educating adults, is allowing them to feel
like they’re in control of their own learning journey. And it’s not being
spoonfed to them. So I see both sides but this way
you know we’re treating them like adults. This is kind of what your
supposed to do by now that we’re going to keep
releasing these if you fall behind then your choosing
to fall behind But we’re giving you all these
opportunities to catch up if that makes sense.>>GREG SMITH: Yeah definitely. I am curious if you. Is there anything you do. So obviously there’s videos
in your courses right. Lots of them out and I know. And then you mention
that you kind of have these assignments that people
have to go out and complete an action
and they’re going to get points for that. Beyond that are there are like. Do you incorporate any kind
of quizzing surveying or or other things within
it or is it really those key things and there’s you know
I’m just actually curious how your how you’re
doing it is there. What are the sort of most
important or most effective maybe content pieces within
the course that you’re using.>>MARISA MURGATROYD: We do some
surveys we don’t do so much quizzing because it’s
not for us about retention. It’s more about
completing actions because it’s not about being
a student. Our program is about them
finishing a product launch for the product and making
two thousand dollars or more. So what we actually do
is we create milestone documents that’s all the core
milestones in the program get list on the milestone documents. And so they keep a milestone
documents and there is dates for each milestones for them
to submit and then their coaches review the milestone
documents and give them feedback on what they’ve
completed. Because our program is a lot
more customized if it’s just them completing
a boost to say yes I understand there are 10
core experiences and the experience formula. I mean I don’t care
if they know that there are 10 experiences I care
that they actually have a mission statement that’s
so powerful that people are going to want to buy
their products. So I’m not quizzing them
on retention of the material or memorisation
or anything like that. What we’re doing is have
you created elements that are going to make your
product marketable that are going make
people want to buy it. They’re going to actually
build your busness have you created marketing elements. They’re going to help
you sell this thing. And that’s really what we’re
measuring and we’re not measuring you know how
accurate their recollection of our teachings are because
that would be more about me and less
about them I care about their results i don’t care
about them being perfect students. Does that make sence?>>GREG SMITH: Yeah I know
that’s a great way to look at. That’s why I ask
because it’s really interesting to see how
people approach that differently. And we were right when quizzing
is really about making sure there is that knowledge
retention. But if you’re actually sending
him out to take action in the world achieve a result
then you don’t necessarily need that because we really push
I include a lot of quizzes in my courses
but mine are usually much more about knowledge retention. I mean my personal one even
is in the LSAT. So you’re preparing for an exam
you need to have certain knowledge retention. You also need to go
and apply it. But with yours where it’s really
like who cares if you remember all nine just
go you know make sure you’re actually building the product
including those things in it. You mentioned that you have
coaches though that’s interesting so how do you how
do you manage the coaching side and is I’m curious
on the cost perspective of that too and for like some
of the people watching who are either earlier
in the game or just getting going in there thinking Wow
how would I include coaching is that something you know
you started out doing yourself. How have you been able to scale
with that. And do you find that coaching
is a pretty awesome thing to add
in there to help people through the program.>>MARISA MURGATROYD: So we have
about 20 coaches on the live your message team that work
across not just one product but about five different
programs that we include group coaching in And
it’s definitely not something that I started with. At first I was the sole
coach doing all the coaching for all the programs. Now there are programs that I
don’t even coach anymore but I created the curriculum
and I created the videos for them. That’s really powerful for me
because then I can focus my coaching in the places is where
it’s going to be most valuable. And I believe in creating
programs that are really concepts
for implementation and application. In most people, if they’re taking this program
they’re not confident in the area
of the topics that we’re teaching right. They could have gotten
the results themselves they would have
gotten it by now. It is not always. Lack of information because like
I said you can search google and get all
the information that you need. So even though it creates
L’evesque frameworks and trainings it’s really
the application where the rubber meets the road. And for some people this breaks
down to not having a way to ask for support or get a second
opinion is I think where there was a lot of people off
because it could have the same two people could have
access to the same information and understand
implemented completely differently. One person could get future
success and one person could fall onto thier face
You know the honest truth of it. So the coaching really
allows everyone to have that second opinion. So they may think you have
a mission statement that’s brilliant. And we’re like we don’t
get you know, so we know there is little
that gets actually is clear or as compelling
as you think it is. It’s powerful because that’s
really what’s going to get someone the result and not
just the fact that the training is incredible and the training
is Gamified its actually being able to ask a real human being. am I on the right. Track.>>GREG SMITH: And I I mean
I personally when I’ve done the coaching so I started out
doing tutoring off line and teaching offline
when I created the on my course I did include a lot
of personal interaction. And for me not only about
getting results but even just especially in the early
days that. One on one feedback of like I’m
helping you out or even one to group feedback of seeing
where people were struggling with helped
me constantly improve and adjust my courses and my program. So I’m curious for you though
if if if you’re if someone’s watching this and they’re
either you know just getting started or trying
to figure out hey coaching this is interesting thing. You know where
would you suggest. At what point do you suggest
adding that in. Is that something you would do
right out of the gate where if it’s just an individual
course creator and just say just do it yourself until
you hit scale and then add is there a break point where
you see usually or would recommend adding
and coaching either in terms of like a minimum price point
to be able to afford it or a certain amount
of revenue before you like you know what I can
afford to go and have someone take over
as coaching or how do you usually look
at that transition. I mean me personally I just
basically got to the point where I couldn’t do
it myself and then I’m like OK I need some help
from tutors to help my students.>>MARISA MURGATROYD: Well
there’s degrees of access. And obviously people pay
for more access so when access is just a Q&A
call you know you do it training and then there’s Q&A
afterwards the next level is actual real group
coaching the next level is actually private coaching
and private feedback that e-mail acsess something like that. So what I recommend for everyone
is what I call it earn what you learn approach
to product Creation. I don’t actually recommend
that you create a whole product and record the entire
thing and then sell it and you let people go
do it on autopilot because as a product creator
you don’t get any feedback. You’ve created a product
that you think people need to have and not necessarily
the product that people actually need to get a result. So I recomend that everyone can
actually deliver the product live first by live I don’t mean
like in person but live as in a series of webinars
like we’re here on zoom right now talking to each
other and delivering the program and actually
seeing how are people responding
in the chat. What questions
are they answering So for example our expense
product master class this is going to be the third
year that we deliver the program. The first year I deliver
every single training live with an audience. I was reading the chat
as I was delivering it and then at the end
they would answer everybody’s questions. Right. Then we would post the replays
now for the second year. I ajusted all my scripts kind
of rearranged stuff and I pre-recorded the entire
program and then I just showed up for the group
coaching calls I have a much better sense of where people
were getting stuck not just from delivering them live
and seeing the chat but watching the Facebook
group seeing the results at the end of the feedback
at the end. But if I had tried a prerecord
the whole thing first. First of all more time
consuming to pre record everything than to just
show up live and deliver it. I would have had to record
it all anyway. It’s been a much bigger project
now this third year that I’m delivering and making
some small modifications and changes based
on the experience people have had. But I don’t have to rerecord
the whole program. And now again I’m showing
up the good coach calls on Mondays we have the coaches
on Wednesdays and we have another
master coaches implementation expert
on Fridays. So to answer your other
questions you know in addition to doing there while you learn
an approach in delivering live whether or not you include
group coaching or just Una that’s my primary record
recommendation when you’re first starting in terms
of the breakpoint at which point group coaching
is viable I would say four hundred ninety seven
dollars plus price. They are totally viable now
in terms of when people get private access to you choosey
and by end of seven plus or above your level
of expertise. Now the only students to get
private access to me are in my thirty two thousand
dollar a year program other people access so it kind of as
you progress in your time and expertise becomes more
and more valuable than you may have other people
coaching for you maybe giving access in a group
coaching format that people are getting
your one on one attention. No I love that and I
like that progression. That’s kind of how when doing
it I started out I think I was tutoring at 50 or 100
bucks an hour for the 101 and then went up and up
and eventually I got to the point especially
and now I’m I’m all I do is think Efik where even
a thousand bucks an hour and you can’t get
my one on one time. However I now have transition
where I just give it away for free. But it’s only in very select
circumstances where I can do that. Right. But it is it. But I have seen a lot of people
do that where they start out at even you know free for the one
I want it’s included to anyone in the program because maybe
only have 10 people in the program initially
and then you get to the point where you charge for it and then
really you can just start increasing that price
point and adding in levels below with coaches
as demand indicates because anyone I run into any
time I run into someone saying I’ve got this problem I’ve got
all these coaching clients are all these clients who want
my time but I don’t have enough time I’m like raise your rates. It’s usually the easiest
thing to do. And then you can always slot in.>>GREG SMITH: Other people
that you can coach to be coaches or help with it on on
the lower end there in most of our coaches
went through our programs and so we’re watching out
for talent.>>MARISA MURGATROYD: So people
who really do the work get huge results. A lot of the work load
the company loves me because it’s coaches
because they understand what it’s like to be a student
in the program.>>GREG SMITH: Yeah that’s
great. And for ever again for everyone
watching I mentioned a couple times but if you check
if you want to learn more about Maurices program or get
into building your own experience products
experience products dot com slash think Giffnock
and check that out.>>MARISA MURGATROYD: And you can
learn a little bit more. Merissa anything else you want
to add around building experience products
or game of occasions students access anything in your
school or education topic.>>GREG SMITH: Well what I
would say is just so you understand
this experience for these 10 core principles are something
that you can apply to both marketing
and delivery and light comes to delivery. It can actually be applied
to one on one coaching consulting or service based
businesses that do not simply apply to homestudy courses
trainings and programs that can also be applied
to larger group programs and mastermind’s as well. So you can apply this principles
in a lot of different contexts. We have people in dozens
of industries apply this and get results. So essentially what an expanded
product is is is a product that combines the principles
of a game education adult learning theory just really
good curriculum design and use 10 principles that we’ve
been talking about the 10 critical experiences
to create a product that really inspires people
into action that closes the gap between what they have
to do and what they want to do. So it gets them taking
action getting results and then when they deal they’re
ultimately going to want to buy from you over and over again.>>MARISA MURGATROYD: Excellent
thank you. And so for everyone if you want
to learn more about those ten principles and start
incorporating that into your products or services again
check out experience products dot com slash think
Efik Merissa thank you is awesome. Really appreciate it. And.>>GREG SMITH: Thanks again. I always like to say
now go out there and live your message like.

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