Lessons Learned from CICIG and MACCIH to Combat Corruption

from here at CSIS one of the most active areas that we've been involved in in the Americas program over these last three years has been the northern triangle in Central America and ongoing efforts to address high levels of corruption and violence in these countries factors that clearly are pushing migration from these countries one of the most important and effective initiatives to promote greater transparency and to attack corruption in two of these countries Guatemala and Honduras have been the International Commission's set up in cooperation with the UN and the Organization of American States to fight corruption and strengthen judicial institutions sisig in Guatemala and Massey in Honduras together with the American University Center for Latin American and Latino Studies we decided to organize this morning's presentation to contribute to a broader understanding of these two innovative institutions their successes and some of the problems that they have encountered Massey and sisig have had measured successes in confronting corruption so much so that entrenched political and economic interests in these countries in recent years have been doing everything they can to undermine the institutions and most recently to prevent the renewal of their mandates before turning the panel over to mark I wanted to share with you the strongest argument that I have heard in favor of the critical role that can be played by these International Commission's I heard this reasoning from a very serious business leader from the region who made the following argument we can accept the role of international institutions like sisig and Massey and there and thereby cede a small degree of sovereignty temporarily to these institutions or we can do as we've had as we've done in recent decades and cede our sovereignty to the forces of international drug trafficking and organized crime as we in fact have done this argument keeps coming back to me when when we consider the role of Massey and ceasing our panel discussion this morning will be moderated by Mark Schneider who is a senior advisor here at CSIS with a very distinguished career that he began as a Peace Corps volunteer in El Salvador a few years ago and which included the other senior positions in government and civil society including as assistant administrator for Western Hemisphere for USAID director of the Peace Corps and senior foreign policy advisor to Senator Edward Kennedy there are a few individuals in this country who know the northern triangle as well as mark mark the floor is yours thank you Michael and it gives me great pleasure to open this discussion of two of the more innovative as Michael indicated attempts to help fragile states in Central America confront deep-seated historical corrupt networks in the same way that we saw an international response to prevent the takeover of Colombia by an armed insurgency two decades ago we need to think how the international community best supports those committed to democratic institutions and the rule of law in fragile states in Central America but in general now two of those efforts are CC the International Commission Against impunity in Guatemala and Moxie the mission of the OAS support for her against impunity in Honduras countries were the pattern of state capture has been increasingly clear since the end of civil conflicts in Central American nearly three decades ago in Guatemala corrupt linkages between criminal organizations and members of the political elite became impossible to hide this year when a presidential candidate was arrested by US authorities in Miami for seeking campaign financing from the Sinaloa drug cartel as well as in killing his major opponents his promise in exchange was to allow them to pick the next ministers of defense and security however this arrest was only the latest evidence of such illicit linkages that Sisi and the country's attorneys general year-after-year had uncovered we'll hear from our panelists and guests including the former fiscal Hannah Dyle former attorney general Claire posse pass by Skype from Costa Rica and her successor Thelma Donna here with us today what their joint investigations revealed in terms of the extent of such corruption that corruption has reached into the presidential palace of former president Otto Perez Molina now on trial for siphoning off tens of millions of dollars from customs revenues and his vice president for doing the same who's already been convicted and sentenced for the same crime his successor Jimmy Morales also has been the subject of charges of illa illa Sen campaign finance filed by the current for Scotland rally in Honduras corruptions become near synonymous with the current administration there after President Juan Orlando or NHANES brother was arrested and is undergoing trial for in the US for drug trafficking and the president self was reportedly described by DEA as a subject of interest several of the same characteristics slightly different were apparent in El Salvador in terms of state capture that was when violent actors particularly the ms-13 and barrio de Ojo gangs essentially controlled multiple municipalities several years ago through extortion corruption and violence at the time the country then had the highest rate of homicides per capita in the world outside of countries of war there's been a significant reduction in El Salvador and the rate of homicides with exemplary programs I should add that both the USAID and the State Department and just have helped promote those programs I think would continue under the current administration if US funding is not curtailed and that's a major issue now as a result of President Trump's decision to halt all aid to the three Central American countries the bulk of the populations in all three countries are desperate for greater security in their homes on the streets and in their businesses the weakness of the rule of law is a key contributor to migration from the northern triangle and that weakness also is a very significant obstacle to economic progress u.s. business is leery and other business international business are leery about expansion into a region without the certainty of the rule of law and guarantees of a level playing field so that firms are not faced with unfair competition unless they violate the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act just last week the State Department issued its investment climate statement for Guatemala noting that FDI the foreign direct investment flows fell 11% last year and it noted complex and confusing laws and regulations inconsistent judicial decisions bureaucratic impediments and corruption continue to constitute practical barriers to investment you know Salvador the same report came out saying political polarization cumbersome bureaucracy and ineffective judicial system and widespread violence and extortion have also contributed to the perception that the investment climate is inadequate in Honduras it noted again weak institutions and corruption high levels of crime and poor infrastructure my bias with respect to the role of international independent mechanisms to strengthen national institutions responsible for the rule of law and for ensuring accountability and governance should be clear from the outset the US government through the work of USAID SCAR see through Issy tap op that in the Justice Department initially funded by the USAID and then the State Department have also bolstered criminal justice systems however it is the independence guaranteed by sponsorship through international organizations like the UN and the OAS that has produced greater credibility in the minds of the population so si si in fact has over 70 percent approval in Guatemala and Moxie and the polls in May showed that it had over sixty percent approval from Honduras in both countries those match the highest level of approval for any institution so the key questions that we hope to answer today are what are the key attributes of these two international mechanisms for supporting justice and the rule of law and to answer those questions we have a unique panel first we're going to hear from Chuck call Charles Chuck Cole associate associate professor of international peace and conflict resolution in the School of International Service of American University he leads the project on international anti impunity missions in Central America sponsored by the Seattle International Foundation and the Open Society Foundations and he has just concluded a really remarkable report on those issues which he's going to talk about and present today I'm going to introduce Chuck now and let him make his presentation and then I will introduce our other panelists including Arturo Aguilar Claire Posse Paz from Costa Rica and our final speaker today will be Thelma aldana former fiscal handle isla de Guatemala I'm thank you mark thanks very much for organizing this event jointly with the Center for Latin American and Latino Studies at American University where I'm a fellow I'm going to try to be brief partly because Klaudia pasa pasa can only be with us for a short time this morning and so I'm going to be give you some of the highlights essentially of this report that I just completed and presented in El Salvador last month it was specifically that report was developed with an eye to the Salvadoran audience I had been in El Salvador earlier and had gotten a flavor of what the concerns were has the president who was just sworn in there on June 1st had made a campaign promise to create a CC like institution for his country in this particular presentation today I'm going to be more generic about the lessons that I've drawn from these two experiences based on over two years of research that I've been doing on both moxie and sisig and it's great to be here with such distinguished commentators on these issues so first of all what is unusual about these these Commission's there's two things that I think we that are they're crucial about them and one is that they are hybrid their hybrid missions as I like to call them and as they are called by others and that is that they have both international mandates and national capacities and mandates so they're integrated peacekeeping operations are generally just international missions for example and so technical assistance missions are generally advisory to national institutions and don't have a mandate from an international institution like these do the other thing that's important about these is that they are consent based so that they were created with the consent of the national government at the outset and under specific terms right and so the CCG agreement was one that had the status of an international treaty which Trump's which Trump's national law in the hierarchy of laws which became important as the Constitutional Court has ruled on its validity three times at least in the case of Guatemala and once in the case of Honduras so the first thing I so that's essentially what I think is important to understand about these these animals okay and lots of other countries have now expressed interest in them and I think it's important to understand that no one is no one's going to be replicated exactly every every country is going to adapt these models in the way that they will and we shouldn't be afraid of that at the same time there are certain core things that are important that have been helpful to the success of these and the first thing I want to say is that they both have pretty historic investigative and prosecutorial achievements both have they have brought former and current senior officials to account in ways that are surprising to national citizens in both countries particularly in Guatemala where has most of you probably know the former president the former vice president's a sitting president a sitting vice president I should say at the time as well as cabinet members military officers have been indicted and are under arrest Guatemala its mandate was to investigate what we're known as illegal armed groups I'm going to call them as by way of translation and illegal armed security groups and it has investigated it is investigated 60 of these groups dismantled them 680 people have been indicted 310 have been found guilty in more than a hundred cases the cases have keep coming since these stats just yesterday a big case a big health corruption case was announced by the attorney general's office and sisig in Guatemala for example and Moxie has helped in a shorter time have more quick results in fact than CC did but maybe with less impact in terms of high-level officials they've indited they've had 12 big cases that they have indicted and have announced they've indicted and those include dozens of legislators legislators as well as the former first lady who is now sitting in a prison much to the consternation of the ruling party many people inside the ruling party in that country they've had cases that they've invaded you know they've hadn't invaded they have done searches of the two main parties of the country something that was sort of unthinkable a few years ago and and I think that the crucial thing about the achievements that these had is that they've done this in conjunction with specifically created units within the attorney general's office in both countries without those specially created vetted selected groups these international missions wouldn't have been able to have the success that they've had and the future of those units is actually critical for the future of these kinds of investigations in both countries the so the other thing that's crucial there's some differences between them that I'm that I don't want to go into too much detail but I think it's just important to understand that both of these missions can carry out independent investigations they can carry out I'm sorry they can select the cases that they are going to investigate in the case of Guatemala they can conduct their own investigations without without involvement of the of the public ministry over time since it was created in 2007 and went into action in 2007 susi that's 12 years it has increasingly worked much more hand in glove with the with the attorney general's office the public ministry in these countries initially it did more independent investigation now it does more closely the case of moxie and Honduras it can only do investigations in conjunction with the national authorities and of course and they these prosecutions they can work and and together in prosecutions but neither of these missions can prosecute them on their own in these countries and of course all these cases to go before national courts this is an important point in terms of the criticism that has been leveled against them particularly Guatemala of an incursion on sovereignty so all the prosecution's that take place all the courts and judges that are making decisions are all Nationals in both cases okay sounds at this the second of five big points I want to make here is that it has not been easy in both cases the more success that these missions have had the more anti anti bodies they have ignited in both these countries initially you've had presidents who for political reasons wanted to create these bodies but their people and their officials and in some case and in the case of Guatemala they themselves became investigated then their opposition arose and particularly since 2016 CC has been a campaign against CC has been organized by the president when his family was investigated by economic elites when they were indicted and began to be investigated so their initial reticence or implicit support has changed over time lobbying firms have been paid millions of dollars here in Washington to oppose these these missions in the last three years in the case of Honduras so another important aspect in contribution of these missions is the is that they make proposals for legal reforms and in the case of Guatemala some very important legal reforms for anti-corruption were approved particularly in the early years in the case of Honduras some electoral reforms were approved but really the Honduran Congress has just not acted on many of the recommendations and so this is one of the more disappointing elements of the role of that mission in that country I'm going to move on and to the next point which is one of the one of the lessons that I think was important particularly for Central Americans is that these things take time to get going and they take time to show results and so it takes months to negotiate these agreements months again to get them approved by national legislative assemblies and months to set up physically inside these countries and hire the people that need to be hired and screened and so it took two years for us to seek to begin to secure its first convictions Moxie's investigations has only led to 12 12 public indictments although many others another dozens of others are being investigated currently inside inside Honduras okay and I think there's been a little disappointment in civil society in Honduras particularly because civil society wanted a sec they wanted that thing that Guatemala had to get rid of their president and their standard for many of the people in civil society has been they think that they have a president and and until that president is indicted then their satisfaction with Moxie is not going to be fully satisfied it's not all of civil society but much of civil society has had this standard that has been has has shaped the public image of moxie despite my has mark said the very public positive public supports that it that it has I've already mentioned so the next point I want to say is that these strong and strong partnerships are essential to the success of these missions and I've already mentioned one of those partnerships which is the partnership with the National attorney general's office that has been crucial for the success the other part of that has been technical capacity building and I think that has been a part a contribution perhaps not as much as it could have been in the case of sisig but over time increasingly as and in Honduras there's been a certain level of capacity building as well there's two other elements of that relationship that are important though it's not just technical it's actually about helping improve and provide the space for good officials and honest officials who want to do their job honestly to be able to do their job honestly and not to have the pressures that they experience from either fears that they have about their own security or Bryer are an ability to withstand bribes and pressure from interests that are trying to undermine investigations which has which happens constantly in these environments the final thing is that CCG is actually one of its important contributions which is something that I think is really important is it helped actually create the atmosphere and the conditions for the selection of really strong attorneys general in the case of Guatemala two of whom Klaudia pass a pass and tell'em Aldana are going to speak shortly but I think CC was helpful in the creating the conditions for the selection of those people who elevated the work of the Attorney General's Office the the other element of partnerships that important is the partnerships with international actors both of these in in in missions part of their independence has mark helpfully mentioned comes from the fact that they don't depend on the national government for their funding they depend exclusively on international donations and those donations have been generous and adequate for what is essentially a pretty low cost investment in a very important mission and the case of Guatemala roughly 15 million dollars a year since 2007 is the is the average budget roughly of that of that mission it's been a little over half of that in the case of Honduras which is a smaller mission and and the United States has been the largest donor to both of those in since their creation and those are important partnerships that have continued until recently in the case of the United States when under the Trump administration its reticence about supporting sisig and some of the actions of Sisi particularly its sensitivities about seeing see seek has an in terment has an incursion on sovereignty as well as a particular case involving the big cops a Russian family that had been there and CC in one of its investigations came up with a bunch of people who had paid for false documents including these folks and these folks had powerful friends in in Washington and they have worked with and they have highlighted what they consider to be an injustice there which is puzzling frankly to me in terms of what the work of CC has been the last point I want to make is that these anti impunity missions were often created sort of under the guise of a technical mission but in both cases they've ended up having some pretty important political impacts and and that that can be expected of a hybrid international mission like these they have touched the systems of politics and economics in ways that go beyond judicial processes and that is precisely why they have become said so polarizing and so important I had a plumber come to my house here in in Maryland and we started chatting as he was under the sink and he and he said he's from Honduras and I said well I'm doing some work on this MOX this was like three months ago and he said oh yeah why do you think wonhee Menace the former head of moxie left and so this guy had been here for 12 years and he knew the name of the head of moxie in in Honduras which for me was just a testament of the kind of profile that an international mission gets that a typical international technical assistance program doesn't get and that is important for the impact that these missions can have in terms of inspiring both the national officials who are doing their jobs and the public to come forward and give testimony in important cases that are that are sensitive political parties have been shaped by this the way that legislative financing of campaigns and the corruption that has just been systemic for virtually all the political parties for the last few decades has been exposed and his and now political parties are being forced to actually change the way they do funding in order to abide by the law for the first time and the last thing I'll say is I'm going to go back to a point that Mark said earlier which is if we're concerned a migration in the United States if we're concerned about migration violence is driving much of that fear and insecurity and at the core of that fear and insecurity is impunity for the that core justice systems don't work and these missions have been important and positive experiences for for trying to turn around that impunity and curb that impunity and show and they have shown in their short amount of time that it can be done that top officials can be prosecuted and put in jail so I'll stop there thank you from klaudia posse pass from Costa Rica and I'm going to ask however this is going to be done to be done claudia was the Guatemala's first female attorney general has been secretary for multidimensional security at the Organization of American States she's a criminal law specialist scholar judge litigator who's worked to strengthen the justice Guatemala she founded the Institute for comparative from the studies of Guatemala a human rights organization in 1994 and she assumed leadership of the Guatemalan ministerial público in 2000 December 2010 and served until May 2014 and since then she has been part of invested OS investigating missions of disappearances in but in Mexico and also into the human rights violations in Nicaragua and so Claudia the floor is yours yes Nadia's mark when of years ago say yeah Jesse Ascoli beetus yami-bakura oportunidad de compartir lo que construye mostra hondo coco loco and cc-can and mr. Yokum rico estoy hablando is the Central America por que le dijo el programa they promised America they this is he who now ready sissy on the verge of a nose even that's why I recruited I dunno spoon to sky Ianto Carlos tells him cuando reflux your no sobre no break a significant trauma ho home sissy para system is boost Issei what Amala e a sauna in karen livadas upon a in k4 capacity awara our president in funcion SS mr. president i Patel community I said process halls in which other day you saw duck on the now's creo que para poner comprender lo que significa cc-can Guatemala tenemos que retro train Oh Sal momento anterior a KCC gets to be era in advice his kiss offense emotional owatta mala there those mini says era una Guatemala de la violencia teníamos parent I say so Missy dos por casa milà restante sora tenemos pretty oh no puto Cinco esto significa una de las casas más altas del mundo de yo Missy dios y por supuesto la mayoría de en absoluto in Chimaera ah da una respond fianza Telos organizaciones de los ciudadanos ante las autoridades he real men stay Miyabi enig unexpected Eva de que el guca so the forever sold red y por este este sa na rio de te kuna da de valència dress confianza sto grupo de organizaciones de so she asked me this answer is the richest – Manos a to be aro like that a kriaras Dona nice SEO taliano come parte de la comunidad international come organizaciones say Estados Unidos an Europa he luego sequin for possible estate is more convenient from Guatemala ill-omen Co no porque la primera teriyaki tinea near premier commission al era yes LLL Alessia necesito Mississippian contra Rufus card or less than amigo fiscal honest no question esto y intercept boy oh boy eres mi trabajo por que innocent own says Iran Iran organizaciones Musharraf's Estela so CSC be in las que NOS decree and su trabajo Hiromu difficile in severe poured on them prasad he tell Carlo was Rico choke us to minutos minutos en los primeros photon can be enormity was a single if you cold I'll a contradictory movin on yourself but a tener la posibilidad the condone are la Penna a las personas que fueron Colorado Rosetta Casas 10 Clemente ro meto say specialized investigatio como se scooches telephony cos K o que estaban durante varios años en el legislation no sabían puesto impractical is our 800 mah mention our Turkish a minute oh say a probe are on ladies contra la corruption Montano las penas the delitos can't ascertain pretty ratios in and colleague opener he said to be seeker of computers can't a certainly Sita's no more FINA cement electoral a or a solicitor here ill Enrique's mentally cito can't is no Nora from England this depends on Mozilla Caputo the most important a trail for a master reformers Norma Tevas pero también he elements you know well lock ratio the primero or Unni girls fiscally specific us and the pro-bowl la paura news questions day my your ears book look at permit do kala contra party who is here Phyllis investigaciones criminales where earlier Alipore courses independientes he luego tambien who I was no Grammy entos precise calculator don't see no bra and the same brothers mill yes pero también el cambio in and ministerio a governess seonyu la corte Suprema Justicia yes the stress it warmest institution Escudero trabajar de forma computation a Rondo nueva cysteine t'les cinereous cada uno por supuesto con su role pero todos come allocate Avoca moon day permitir que la ley Shepley cara de pensar in the window grupo transformice giannis yes but on this Arroyo's con la presencia Sicilian what am i lucky no like mercy for Dante's SM metal trabajo differential calculus Coco's Crassus is Clara C&C scale bonuses Kennedy sia antes del goes melee DC siete it was enough for memoria Activa in a de una manera como o caso or una investigación y ESO consumer yeah mucho recursos realmente in pena observe our Qualis erin Loretta's criminales a foreign Pandya narco-traffickers de Corp co estaba detrás de la comisión 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la dirección de analysis criminal cases the grupo de personas que no necessary Amenti Sun avocados que tienen la tecnología de quoi de areco sorry for my Co para examinar less coincidence yes entry-level eesti currently los teléfonos entry las cuentas vant areas yo creo que so cynical grants alto qualitative o para poder investing our efectivo i profundamente los los grandes casos de corps up co e general dependence to que sera Pomona revelry dad T no defender del investigación de otros puercos externo Selassie Scalia capo dar como la contra Lauria de Quinta's por ejemplo que podría villa tar mucho less investigaciones so inclusive inclusive as viernes y creo que esta nueva este Fortaleza mint restitution analysis nueva psaltery resistant / former de trabajo in Tam being a pro cambio in terrassa lorena in la forma until – los llanos percy be honest trabajo de nose fiscal as de las cuevas de los investigadores de ce ce pas que por primera vez in El Pais they come ashore come from fear in less than $30 you know South Korea this new kind of quest audience principal Merrow and El Pais ona fiscal know either repenting in you know we we say you know take well over speaker kill another video goomahs como reconocimiento maestro trabajo de la estamos con usted es lo que viene el comment and being miss compañeros Chris Collins they repented him lesser than Leah let go bro is the confianza parrot ambien comin sandy ruin men so crazy for lotta significant villa style originally hence al aliy he came here author of four mile a minute they wrestle – conflict rose de minimis AA la violencia Robert first on Tomas mass effect Eva territory is the girl consumed in men Soledad sec yo le fils cartel Mandana porque los los últimos casos sa present pero lo que NOS de Valero isla former interior mr. Levitin mala había sido dr. al o por las elitist economicus for less elitist a co-ed políticas for a three-meter Gonzalo inclusive a el ainy efficiency adele sistema de justicia inefficiency ax el estado de guatemala new era una casa valle de olaf Alta tecnica the new propósito específico tierra Montoneros pretty lejos de siempre siempre v indisputable estes elite se yo creo que ha sido muy means illegal a los dueños del estado esta en todo de la comisión in Guatemala Don Orsillo mere emotion in la seek revenge on days they chose a ballistic you know custom NPN Daniel Torres – ketchup or CT pero si la presencia Sigonella pie is for lack a permit leo laughs transformación then Ministerio público del sistema acoustic colors versus de Meyer es go he air a la Palestina yet that we know I release thee endow a no limitation para compartir con coaster si la paciencia the permitted me a large she says the Santa say he prescribed ideas mondo a todos nosotros estamos Ireland Syria I was tested as the front Oh gracias yes ahora vamos a charge now we're going to and now we're going to hear from our to toe Aguilar a currently the executive director of the Seattle International Foundation and who directs their mission and focus on contributing to the rule of law and a more equal society more egalitarian society in Central America our tutor was a human rights defender researcher and political strategists who worked more than twenty years the defense of justice and democracy he was the main political adviser to Ivana Velasquez head of the International Commission Against impunity in Guatemala and has also been key in working on those issues related to strengthening the capacity of the Guatemala justice institutions prior to that art doodle was the secretary of strategic and private affairs for the Attorney General of Guatemala Fatih pasa pasa and he is an attorney and loader in Guatemala with master's degree I fell on idiotic University and he the 18 I thought it important to mention that he worked in the office of Human Rights the archdiocese of Guatemala which helped to solve the murder of the bishop wanted to on Jose who died died in working to you and high commissioner for human rights in Guatemala where he trained and advised indigenous peoples organizations in strategic constitutional litigation dude oh thank you thank you Mark and thank you for the invitation first hard to follow us on the AG she she knows everything but but a couple of things that she didn't mention I'm gonna she mentioned the entire technical side of the spectrum spectrum if you were to see my notes it's basically the same roadmap because it's it's basically what happened when it's basically the truth of what I call the third the three periods of the presence of CC in in what the my life admire the first period with Commissioner Nicastro's and it was the strengthening of of the laws and the entire law systems that allowed for for seven eight years later to be cases in order for be case to be develop develop the second stage of CC was the strengthening of the public ministry the Attorney General surfaces Claudia mentioned in two or three of them Regas units units in the public ministry who served later under the mandate of commission ivan velez kiss as the key partners in the wermeling institutions to again be able to develop these big cases and the third stage which closure know that intervention a lot about is the the stage that I maintain as I called the investigator and prosecutorial final stage and that meaning the the the time were commissioner Velasquez head seasick and when he was able to harvest and use the laws that were approved six seven years later and then be able to coordinate directly with several of the units of the public ministry in order for big cases like the case it's called a yin yang espanol the line the case that landed the ceiling presidents in vice-president in jail of the permanent of San ability in order for those types of cases to be to be able to to be presented before the courts just to mention that case Casa La Linea is the evidence that case has everything it has videos it has audios it has documents it has photography it has everything but regarding the wiretaps and only in that case ninety seven thousand calls were analyzed and a coke can be thirty seconds long or it can be fifteen minutes long so that's a lot of work and over nine hundred thousand documents were process in that case alone so in that sense if the the unit that Claudia mentioned Direction analysis criminal that's the duration of criminal analysis in the it's it's a BAU of of what of the Guatemalan criminal justice system if that unit wouldn't be in place with the know-how with the and with the skill set and with the technical hardware and software needed that case pudding would be able to be presenter or constructed in any way because it's too much you need a small army of people to work those sort of micro macro cases so I'm gonna peel back of the comment of La Linea to say that in the political sense what I understand about the view and the sense of what the Attorney General's both Attorney General's and Commissioner Velazquez did regarding the prosecutorial policy in in what Amala in the past five years I would call it an evidence even prosecutorial policy and I'm gonna explain why using the Linea when we developed that case in the case resulted in huge amounts of evidence and if some of you have worked in putting together a case you know that you only use some percentage of the information Nord presented before the judges right so a lot of information remains in position of the prosecutorial body in this case the public ministry right and that information led to the creation of a whole new different set of cases so Casa de Lima was presented in 2015 and then with that information the public ministry and sisig follow the leads and created the cases of 2016 even bigger cases right one several of them and one regarding the public health system one regarding illicit political finance of the of the of the campaign where Otto Perez Molina was elected president and several really big cases and then with the evidence found in the investigations of the cases of 2016 10 CC and the public ministry follow the lead the leads to even bigger cases in 2017 right so you go deeper and deeper into what you can name the heart and soul of illicit networks in Guatemala illicit networks that have a root in the political system and that have a root in the economic system how the economic system works in my country yes that's the first idea evidence-room prosecutorial policy and the second one that I wanted to mention is and a lesson learned and teabagging again and Chuck's comment what has sisig left in these years in Guatemala besides we already know the big cases people in jail and everything and and and meaning the news every day and everything and comment about that before I go into the second idea being the news I think it comes not from the thirst of spotlight from these institutions meaning the public ministry and sisig but from thirst of justice from these societies these societies waited 30 40 50 years in order to see some justice done when justice finally came I'm talking about on dudas and my country what the malla people just just were so happy and you could see it in 2015 in on dudas I mean what am i aware people took the streets in in the most peaceful way possible to express their concern for the lack of rule of law for the to expressing concern for corruption now being seen as what it is as the system not as an anomaly but as the system and then justice starting to shift from being an anomaly tube in to start to be in the system as it should be in a rule of law state so going back to the second idea that's the rule of law I always get around a little bit that are in in my country we don't have a law-abiding citizen ship we have a non law-abiding citizen ship and we pride on that and we used to as a society in every sense and people that are fortunate enough from my country to come to the US and then they go back and kill around that now you see when you go to the US you transform into a different human being you don't throw the trash in the street you wait for the light in order to cross the street or to drive and you don't cross a red light when you're driving you become a different type of scenery and that's because the context is really really different and because there is a strong word behind and that is consequences because you're going you're aware that you're gonna have consequences and that is the the legacy I think that Cece gammaxy analog of these efforts can live in my country or in other countries in Central America the new conscience of of being a subject or begin yeah in any time being put before a court or being put before a prosecutor so being conscious that consequences can happen and will happen if you don't no way belong and as I see it is the beginning of the beginning of a cultural and societal transformation in my country just the beginning of the beginning because that takes generations right but at least you can finally see the light and you can hear the conversations and say no that's the way we used to do it but now we're learning to you to do it in a different way and in my sense that is what will not and cannot be taken away from the watermelon Society after all of this is over and you can see it now in in Guatemala for example there was a very recently the government of what Mona was trying to buy airplanes from another country and society in general just said why are you buying planes we're not a war we're not gonna be a war and people are don't have a health public health sister and I have a public education system redirect the money to there so there is not only a conscience of the need to they need to have a law abiding culture in the society bodies now there's a conscience that if you want that you need to chip in you need to participate and that I think is the one of the most important and he points that all of these efforts and all of this pain and all of this offering and all of this sacrifice is gonna live to my country thank you more thank you very much I'm going to follow up on that that last point to ask both of you clearly there has been a beginning to change the mindset in both countries so that there are no longer listened to cobblers that even the most powerful potentially are at risk if they violate the law and I want to ask both you does that change if as we know the current government in El Salvador in Guatemala has decided not to extend CC beyond September so unless something is done as a result of the current presidential election there next year Sisi will no longer exist and in in Honduras the mandate for moxy runs out the end of descent December of this year so my question is do do you both think that the change is the beginning of changes in the cultural assumptions in these countries about the rule of law and about accountability will be lost I think it's hard to say I think that way you said it at first was was a good way of saying which is that the certainty of impunity has ended in Guatemala the certainty of impunity is ended I think in Honduras for now and I think there's still a lot of impunity that doesn't mean you know there's still a lot of corruption it's still part of the way things are done and so you don't want to overstate how much things have changed but thing the game the field has changed has Claudia Paz and Arturo both described in the case of Guatemala very eloquently how much can that be rolled back and I think there's a lot of fear of that as most of you know and it's been mentioned earlier CC will end in September it is neither of the two final candidates for the Guatemalan presidency has indicated that they support a renewal of its mandate and and the the moxie will ended and and in January when its term is up unless it is a renewal is approved by the government and the OAS which is still possible but I think let's assume they go away and if they do I think that there was already in Guatemala when I was there last month a perceptible sense that the things have changed in the last year even people are making actually accusations without foundation and so the rule of law is being misused in many cases by the by by the system to bring charges against people who are fearful that they're going to be put in jail for different things and so that's part of the dynamic that's changing and and so there's a fear that the the the gains are going to be misfired and misused in a way that actually undermines the gains that have been that have been achieved I think that the other thing is that you know that's that there can always be another administration that will come in later though that might actually hold people to account and I think that is one of the things that's lasting about both of these situations I think people are varied as I mentioned disillusion in Honduras about the inability to to get the president who has been implicated in documents in New York federal courts in very minimal ways mentioned but not implicated I should say although his brother and his late sister have both been implicated and and his brother is under indictment here in the States and in jail and so I think that though that that that frustration coexists with a sense that may be more as possible or do thank you Mark um I think the lesson learned here is that you have to fight for democracy and for justice and the invitation is for citizens to participate and to engage because for CeCe it's a great tool and it's a great example of how you can shift or start to shift the way things happen and think that and people think but their responsibility at the end of the day is its it's ours it's four of the watermelons and we need to be conscious of that and we need to the the progress that we all celebrated in 2015 and 2016 people have to be very conscious that if they don't participate and if they don't engage it will fade away it will happen in what a man because as as a chapter but of course there's a lot of impunity and there's a lot of of of corruption stealing what among what we have now is a way of combining it but you need to know that justice doesn't happen like magic that there are people behind it there are processes behind it there's a lot of hours and sacrifice behind delivering justice for everybody in a country and the civil society and every member of society citizenship a company a company the people that are in the forefront of that fight that's really a completely necessary as one India and the second idea in my country a few years back we inverted the the incentive and the sanction system the social incentive and sanction system before if you were in to be in government people expected for you to rise up in the chain of the socio-economical pyramid that's it to get enriched elicits me that was given if you went into government and people naturalized that reality in my country after all of this that that system has been oh it's going slowly back to what it should be right so I think the fight now is for us to be very aware of that an incentive system you have to be very aware not to let the system sanction the people that have fought for justice and that had given their lives for several years and have devoted themselves to fight for justice and to fight impunity in my country if we let the system go back and to incentive corruption and to sanction the people finding it then I will be very very worried I'm going to ask Chuck I should just let me just say that last point about the sanctions and how the system operates in government is is why to CSIS last year one of the things that we found was that the issue of civil service reform sounds technical but it's absolutely crucial in terms of whether or not government functions for the citizens of the country and the the both for all three countries the civil service system goes back to the 60s and the lack of reform is a current obstacle to moving forward in terms of greater representation greater accountability and greater justice for those those three countries Chuck let me ask you this you've been assessing the strengths of CC and Moxie recently in this report thinking about how that what what are the key attributes that would most help el salva-dork as it moves forward in the discussions about how it's going to strengthen its own system of justice you want to talk about what those some of those attributes you think might be most useful in terms of Salvador's moving forward yeah I think I mean in the report we just which is available online at our Center for Latin American Studies website at American University might one that is www.hs well I don't know what to do yeah so um I uh if you just Google a you cloud CL ALS Moxie it comes here you go that's how I that's why I can see the we had the report there so one of the things that we say that we found in the report is is I mean we examine sort of the pros and cons of international associate of the affiliation with an international organization right I think that basically the pros of being affiliated with international organization are clear and I think that would be helpful there's the president who Kelly has been articulating this as you know consistently so that's one element right that it's instead of having a mission such as Ecuador Ecuador just created a an International Commission Against Corruption it's a panel of international experts who have very solid reputations but it's not backed so it's obviously consent based but it's not backed by an international organization and so it's its ability to influence that governments is a little diminished in terms of its weight for example by contrast the second thing is this important power of of carrying out investigations that I think is really important and it has been important in the case of C seek having access to documents all case documents all documents that in investigations and public docking stations having an ability to make proposed reforms to laws that's proven incredibly very important in terms of the wiretapping powers in terms of access to documents that might be protected by state secrecy under certain circumstances which continues to be a problem in Honduras that they seek just tweeted about yesterday for example that will face seek is the Honduran special unit within the prosecutorial officer that works with Moxie and I think the other thing that I didn't mention enough I think in my remarks is the relationship with civil society and I think civil society was in the streets has Arturo mentioned in 2015 in Honduras that that's why we have amok sees because people were in the streets demanding change demand action and demanding frankly the head of the President and this was a way for the president to save him his presidency and and that role is important in terms of maintaining that pressure maintaining oversight maintaining accountability and continuing to be basically a source of both pressure on the international mission but also a source of support and pressure on the government and the legislature to continue to – to support independent investigations into into mega corruption right so those are some of the things I would say I'm gonna open it up for questions in just a second I have one more question which I promised myself that would ask our total you served as chief of staff to the Attorney General of your country and you served the chief of staff to the commissioner for ceasing which was the best job it's a hard question Patty's not on the line you know I see myself as a as a very lucky person I've been able to learn a lot from these two persons Claudia Posse passed even Velasquez and it's been an honor and it's been a lot of fun to serve my country on they're both so yes it's fun eight years of fun all right yeah the other last question I want to ask both of you is clearly you've mentioned it and we've seen the rising tide of those in both countries who have been subject to investigations to go after the reform movement – – in the case of Guatemala seek to throw out ceasing to go after the the leaders within the reform movement to go after the former attorney generals etc and in Honduras the the Parliament has actually voted laws aimed at restricting the capacity of the Attorney General and and in moxie and and argued strongly to get rid of moxie not to extend it so what's your sense both of you as to what might be done to counter the counter-revolution that's a that's a great question in it and it brings us to what I think is I mean the what's not Flatow it's not sort of maybe present enough in this room is exactly this sense of contention that exists about CC in Guatemala it's really you know being attacked on a pretty consistent basis by by by powerful people and it's also had a lot of critics within the US Congress more recently because it's and so I think what is it so the first thing that I think is necessary is something that we're doing already which is to provide independent analysis of these institutions so that you have some factual basis on which to understand what they've done and what what their shortcomings are and and they do have some shortcomings but but really I think the the positive contribution much outweighs those shortcomings I think a lot of the criticism is unfair right that you see again CC and it is so that that's without going into more detail I'll say that I think that working again civil society has partner in these countries and in other countries that are considering such a thing is really vital for the ongoing success and understanding of of an international mission I think careful consideration of the mandate and communication about the mandate is something that could have been done better in both of these countries and should be done better in any country that's undertaking such a mission in the future as well as creating realistic expectations about that but you know I find it curious I'm sitting here and I was listening to Claudia poss talk about I was moved by how she talked about how judges and prosecutors are now seen had never been seen as it has somebody who were heroic figures and she has as well as all three of the people sitting up here not everybody in the anti-corruption movement has this background but all of us come from human rights backgrounds and we started off working on Human Rights 20 or 30 or 40 years ago 50 some oh okay 50 but and I think what's interesting is to see the kind of passion that this issue is inciting among people who feel that thirst for justice that our two dimensions and and and 30 or 40 or whatever years ago that thirst for justice took the form of clamor for human rights and today we see people a verge citizens who are who are clamoring for justice around these issues and I think tapping into that mobilizing that is actually the most crucial thing and I think if we if if Guatemala and Honduras can can preserve that sense of just of judges and and prosecutors and police has heroic figures then then I think that would be an important thing thank you it's the same basic principle or among democracy an enduring democracy belongs to endurance and Guatemalans and it is Suppan asked to to defend the progress and for example um if you if you review every poll being done on on c6 approval ratings instead of one Amala it's 70 75 80 percent of of approvals so we live in democracies so the majority of what amounts believe that Sisi should has done a good job and any and they approve of the job that she has done so the invitation is to learn what was very good from that experience what was good and what wasn't and learn from that and move forward as watermelons on defending the progress and that's meaning the institutions the people the loss the were put in place and that were on the forefront of this of this fight right and to defend also this system of sanction as as Claudia mention and as Jeff was mentioning it is impressive to see when Claudia pacifies or tell Molina walk the streets of what Amala they're rock stars and they are actually but they are roadsters actual rock stars they go and they they work the streets and people stop them can I take a selfie can i oh I admire such a manual worker I take another selfie can I get another graph you're just like rock stars right and that in my country have never ever you could ask people before all of this who's the Attorney General of your country nobody knew not even the name and is one of the most powerful public officials in the water my last system right so to engage that's Invitational I think that's the only way to preserve that what has been done in the past years citizens must engage and must remain engaged several years in their own capacity great thank you on that note I want to open it up for questions from the audience before we hear finally from Salma Dona have to close our session but first question is we have a question here in front here here here Mike thank you Francisco via grin I'm a retired Oh your name in Bahamas Muskogee Island retired Guatemalan diplomat I have a question for Chuck and mark only because you're in Washington and you follow u.s. foreign policy up closely he has made enormous progress with respect to strengthening the rule of law and supporting the fiscal Hannah Dahl mr. de público in Guatemala I don't think there's any question about that the opposition that you mentioned does exist in some quarters particularly I would say on political side of those in government and I think mistakenly because I believe that their concerns in fact with respect to migration and other issues whether its sovereignty etcetera those are they don't understand that sisig is the strongest tool for addressing the conditions that result in increased migration and that result in criminal networks being able to maintain their roots and strength and presence in Guatemala and I think that that's why I think Chuck's point about and our doodles that what needs to be done is that needs that their actual progress and achievements need to be better understood and explained and communicated I'm just going to comment if they're on Maxine hunter in situation today the I think the distinction is between moxie and sisig the government the term administration has had a different approach and it has not been has negative has not been negative actually at all about moxie and so Kim briar who's the assistant secretary for Western Hemisphere affairs was in Honduras a couple months ago and said she supported the work of moxie the charge a Heidi Fulton for the last three years has consistently said that she supports the work of and that will face ich the special unit within the Honduran prosecutor's office that has also come under attack and and I think and I think that that maybe there's an eye there maybe there's an optic there that seems that they think this there's a real concern about sovereignty I mean there's just a what I call sovereign Tisza MS is spreading around the world and and there's a misperception in my in my view that this is somehow an incursion on sovereignty this was particularly true at the US mission to the UN which saw this is something that the most which is already an anti multilateral kind of administration that we has is very gets jittery when international organizations do things that don't respond directly to what members there the United States government to remember States think they should be doing immediately and so I think that's a little bit of what's happening but I don't think that I don't see that negative attitude happening with Moxie and I think the the the embassy has been very supportive and financially as well as politically just going to quote former ambassador or ambassador for Americans about IML Penn William Brown film one of his treats trips to Central America he said um sisig is and these mechanisms is the best investment I've done in the past 15 years if you want a bang for your buck look at these mechanisms we had a question here yeah hi Keith slacking with earth rights international we're a human rights organization here in Washington well have pushed a little more on this question in terms of what could have been done to address Trump administration support for CC could more have been done to try to educate the administration skeptical members of Congress about what the institution was doing what its role was the positive results that was having how it was actually contributing to addressing some of these factors that are contributing to migration coming to the United States or was it essentially a lost cause from the beginning with this administration and then what what sort of lessons for future initiatives of this type can we take from that in terms of should there be an overt political strategy some sort of a lobbying campaign with the US government with other donors to explain specifically what the institutions do yeah I mean I personally think that we those who supported ceasing from the beginning mistakenly believed that the the factual basis of their achievements with cliffie Scott handed out in Guatemala was was on its face obvious and and so when the first attacks came about the specific case involving the bit coughs no one saw that as necessarily a major a major issue and and in fact at that point there needed to be a full-scale effort at educating and explaining how the case came about and and the broader set of achievements that we've heard in terms of institutional changes to strengthen the system of justice in Guatemala and the the actions that have been taken over the years to address these illicit networks which which had increasingly powerful influence over government actions in Guatemala I don't anything that we have here another question and a senior diplomat and knowledgeable expert on Guatemala Franklin thank you Frank LaRue I identify identify yourself sir yes Franklin Ruehl actually worked in the origins of CC and currently representative of fundamentals in Washington just to take it further I think that the the problem did not originate in CC because everyone recognizes the success of C 6 was whatever we can criticize but CC has as Arturo was mentioned in the quote been the most successful initiative that has been proposed in what a mile and by the way an initiative that came out of civil society which i think is important to rescue this factor it was civil society that suggested it to the Ombudsman to the procureur derechos humanos our Ombudsman at a moment to suggest to the government that then negotiated was the UN but interestingly enough I don't think anyone was looking at CC and mistakes sec there were excuses like the web cove case because actually they did by false papers and the investigation was done on them was on the sale of false documents of immigration so we were there so that was a legitimate investigation but if you look at the fact that President Trump was going to meet with President Morales this weekend this Monday after he had purchased illegally which was then suspended but purchased illegally airplanes in Argentina at an over price so you have a lame-duck president leaving committing the worst cases of corruption being stopped by his own courts and by his own Controller General the controller reacquaint us and still invited to visit the White House one wonders that what prevailed here was the personal interest of the White House and the dealings with president morales beyond anything else and CC was never really in the design of foreign policy so I think this is something to to make a reflection with Congress because this is something Congress can correct with a bipartisan perspective of these issues I think and and whether cc could still be somehow rescued I agree with her total that the main responsibility is of what the Mullins to defend democracy this is true but democracy is always defended with partnerships and the international partnership not only was the US but with the UN and the European Union and others is crucial at this stage of what Amala otherwise it will mean an enormous slip back to the past and back to the old regime and to the cancellation of the legislation that was enacted before okay we're gonna take one more question that was not the question that was a very good comment we're gonna take one more question and while we're doing that if somebody can move the podium so that our final speaker can make her comments I appreciate it i Robert Thomas and an anti-corruption reporter for him likes my question revolves around international cooperation with other prosecutors the big example that comes to mind is lava Giotto and but there are others you mentioned the US prosecutions so the question is will with the lapse of these commissions change the nature of international cooperation with other prosecutors in any way or has a foundation been laid that will allow that the sharing of evidence this cooperation to continue I think there's a trend now and it has to do more with the political side of it than with the technical side of it there is a demand for justice in this countries now and now the bar is way higher than it used to be and citizens now demand their institutions to deliver justice in certain specific areas corruption is one of the most sensitive ones so my guess is if that there is political will on the side of the Attorney General's in Central America there will be cooperation and international cooperation between different public ministries in the region and maybe cooperation with the Department of Justice here in the US I know I'm not allowed to speak about specifics but I know the fluent cooperation between DOJ and the in previous years the Attorney General's Office in Guatemala and the cooperation between DOJ and CC in certain specific topics so I don't see that stopping but I see that it's just a technical part of a bigger picture you need what you need to keep is the political will to do it because send sending a document in order to get information that's you see having the will to send the document to get the information that's the key issue and you need to balance citizens are really important to maintain the political will now we're going to here's our final speaker from Thelma Donna you're privileged to have the former attorney general Guatemala who served from 2014 in 2018 as the fiscal Hannah Tyler bought the Malo she also previously was the president of Guatemala Supreme Court from 2011-2012 a law degree from San Carlos University and she was elected president of the conference of the state's parties to the United Nations Convention Against Corruption in Vienna in November 2017 if you see variety of awards and I think that in her book by the way the little Ethel's the last but I'm so public 2013 at one point the country's electoral tribunal confirmed her candidacy to the presidential election in Guatemala and that was withdrawn by the Electoral Tribunal and that's part of the reason why she's here based on spurious charges that were brought against her and and also by threats that were made against her including as you recall I mentioned that Mario Estrada the candidate for another political party for the presidency was arrested in Miami and because one of the things that he tried to do was to recruit the Sinaloa cartel to eliminate two of his opponents one of whom was Telmo aldana and so she is is here in a sense as a result of the threats against her it is our privilege to have Thelma Donna please [Applause] Chuck and it Chuck has agreed to translate we'll see how I do okay go ahead we wanna do yes the Saline in Sierra and relay siendo potassium by camy really siren para participar in sierra de este Vento and for being here and to help close this event Felicia Terre organization there's the four Oh por que pienso que owatta mala mas el Daniel khol Presidente Jimmy Morales okay congratulations to for this event because I think the the the biggest damage that the current president Jimmy Morales is done Cepeda grab our con el silencio is that you can in things through silence personal Emma Skye are a Perez OST for o es importante have lar siempre tamanna continue with the mission of what we're doing wanna mala a me queasy hola seasick SL mechanism o mas importante que tenido el pais con el apoyo de NOS unevenness in my judgments see seeing is the most important mechanism that the country has experienced with the support of the United Nations yo metro area separar in cuatro a tapas el funcionamiento de la comisión international control impunity manager so far as to separate up to four stages the success of the of the experience of CC in Guatemala una primera tapas a puede you Bakar en la instalación de la comisión a partir de la gestion tan importante de una sociedad civility Manteca in poder ah the first stage was is the management and setting up of the mission in the hands of a very empowered civil society in Guatemala definite aminos del acuerdo lograr la poyo donaciones Unidas e del Oh different tests by SS co-parenting define the terms of the agreement and to gain the support of the United Nations and to gain the support of the donors importante la participation de eso se civil a pesar de que Guatemala estaba saliendo de un conflict o armado internal uno de los moscow LSD America latina and this support from civil society came despite the fact that Guatemala is emerging from one of the cruelest and most violent civil wars in in Latin America come cuerpo de la galette de seguridad apparatus clandestinos de seguridad in crew stavos en el estado automatic on Lucy X and including that conflict coming out of that conflict you had these illegal armed security clandestine security organizations that were encrusted in the state itself una segunda etapa que Costa – yo la creación de la Sara Mientus para el funcionamiento decisive Fortaleza en toda el Ministerio público either sistema de justicia and the second phase included the family the founding of the work to get going and the establishment of relationships with the public ministry in order to launch the mission en esta segunda tapa Tam being a Torres Summa meant a value sauce paradise klaudia Posse pass laws commissioned ADO's case to Iran in Guatemala equipo de Fisk Alice quizzes a blue soda bottles our congressional republic and so included in that stage were important towering figures such as Claudia Posse pass the commissioners of CC at the time as well as certain members of of Congress has and some judges at the time as well as the prosecutors themselves in the ministers in the public ministry second era todo Marco normative olala contra line in Queen surah nisa la la ley de competencia my original framework including the law against organized crime la ley de maio Ria's bold law of lesser risk SNPs a general unidades importantes dentro de in Ministerio público and then began creating these institutions new institutions capacities within the Attorney General's Office lonely daddy metals especially Election Day analysis criminal unit unit for special methods the unit of criminal analysis that was already mentioned la fiscally especial contra la in Puna dad in Guatemala and special Fisk the special prosecutor of prosecutorial office against impunity in Guatemala primera da Cunha dials comes to you idea and several in Ministerio público so those first two of those three units constitute the brains of the Minister of the public ministry illa fiscally especial control in Puna da de la contra parte de si si es time Tegra poor mother a CMC Scalise expertos and the second and the third office the special prosecutorial unit that works with against impunity that works with CC consists now of over 100 trained prosecutors una tercera top adonde a paris mo sir Commissioner van Bellas K Co como fiscal general de Guatemala que utilize ahmo's s's era mientras que no san dejado tanto los comisionado santeri Ora's como claudia paz y el congreso de la república con la voluntad de algunos de patatas and then we have a third stage in which we have a new commissioner come in in Bambi alaska's as well as myself has the Attorney General and we're able to take advantage of the tools that were left behind by the previous attorney general Claudia Posse pass as well as the laws that were passed by the Guatemalan Congress en este tapa ya podemos hablar de profundis AR en las investigaciones de l'eau de ver sus Casas and so in this stage we were able to deepen the investigations and prosecutions in various cases pero también de la capacidad instil ala que estar de hond occ in el pais but at the same time I'm sorry capacitance teller and so we also had installed and strengthened capacities that were being created within the country with the support of CC e porous on the temple my way our referee solo la dirección de analysis criminal and so for reasons of time I'm just gonna focus on one example which is this criminal analysis direction or interoffice cuando yo Tommy possession como fiscal general a via un gran esfuerzo en la creación de esta direction de analysis criminal avi young ni bottom on Tico's trabajando capacity on dos a pero también estan dentro de estar Direction a specialist today CC and so when I first came into the attorney the Office of Attorney in general there were already several people specialists working with in this criminal Analysis Unit being trained and learning Guatemalans but also specialists from CC tres años después en Ministerio público ledyba analyst –is la CC guatemala Tico's a que trabajar and cosy see three years later this unit lent its own Guatemalan specialists from this unit to CC to do the work that they were carrying out jointly in luego las investigaciones de casos como la linea courtesan delle stelle guatemala Tico yo Tros casos que entra en DS o Nacional International mentee and helped when the investigations of cases like la linea that was already mentioned as well as co-optation of the state and other important cases esta es a me queasy o la tercera tapa yeah you know ultimate topic esta pendiente that was the third stage now were to the fourth stage that still unfolding economy cobalamin or do de pasar de los suspiros de la puna da de is versus a control a corruption carrying a pice I don't have any I don't have any doubt that despite the forces that are working against that are working in favor of impunity and corruption in the in the 3 esta parte tapas a tiene que completing alguma mental la storia what Amala this 4th stage will have to can reach its fulfillment in the history of guatemala el acuerdo de Cresci owned a sec trefi era todo este proceso de Fortaleza me n todo el sistema de justicia wata mala the agreement the creator sisig refers specifically to this creation of strengthened institutional capacities of the Guatemalan state para los cuerpos illegality suburi alia para todos clandestino de seguridad encrusted o's en el estado de mal Tico to work against these illegal clandestine security groups that are encrusted inside the state k luego motor owns a computer on andreas politico-economic a solicitous and then over time transform themselves into illegal political economic networks en las investigaciones Bemis is transformation Y log Ramos Barris a transformation gracias an appeal yet trabajo de la committee on international control in Puna in Guatemala and in our work in the attorney general's office we saw firsthand this transformation of these groups with the support in the analytic support of the FCC apparent Ament a estamos en retro say-so en este momento en el pais apparently we're in a stage of retreat now in the country una capacity I in Stella Yuna legislation que nadie puede strew here but we have institutional capacity as well as laws on the books that nobody can undermine and take take away yamagishi o lo mas importante una cultura de la vallee de que yes in Stalone el corazón y on ax men Telugu Tamil TECO's yes on se relatively and we have a culture of legality that's installed itself in the hearts and the minds of Guatemalan people and society that is impossible to reverse yesa cuarta etapa que esta pendiente de acuerdo con el el acuerdo sus cristo entre el gobierno a Guatemala in a Sione's Unidas okay fine ELISA in septiembre in this final stage this fourth stage even though it's about to end according to the agreement between the state and the CC in September no Simba commode a asegurarnos de la noria Parisian de los cuerpos illegally de seguridad yeah per Otto's clandestinos de seguridad a solo que stop Indian thing what Amon suggest that we need to continue to commit ourselves to the non reappearance of these illegal clandestine armed security groups in in Guatemalan society young que ahora Ministerio público este in more vigilancia and although in vigilancia seeing actor I'm sorry in ministerial pool administered so they although the Attorney General's Office is vigilant right now perfume is being passively vigilant right now he is passive Adele in total Pais ESO no quiere decir que la otra tapa David a really sassy this doesn't mean that the sports stage cannot realize its its ultimate yes a sentence in development is a tricky area mucho apoyo de la sociedad what ml TECA and in a sense it requires the support of multiple sectors within Guatemalan society community Internacional and the ika prepare our protocol Oh psyche a reflection our sobre los buenos practicas to prepare protocols and reflect on best practices yes a suma mente importante empezar a prepper r es a– cuarta etapa para cuando el momento political Oh permit a– implement our longing advice and we have to prepare ourselves for when the conditions permit for this fourth stage to implement to be implemented to be prepared to do so Accio de aquella Nisa Kiera estamos de rodia's estamos MP a tratando de res katar la democracia in guatemala dez de cualquier espacio dentro de pais o quiénes mo sido for self absolutely what Amanda so we're working hard we're on our feet working and standing up to this situation whether we are inside Guatemala or even those of us who are forced to be outside of guatemala el estado de hecho en guatemala luchar por la gente para mauricio el sacrificio which other state of rule of law is something that needs to be and fought for and so thank you very much for this opportunity thank you Mary run thanks Callahan about Aldana our guests our guru Chuck and obviously if you scold him that I'll gladly pass capacity who's now on a plane someplace going someplace from Costa Rica and thank all of you

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