Doctor of Education Virtual Webinar



all right good afternoon everyone thank you for joining us today for the Johns Hopkins School of Education and Doctor of Education virtual webinar my name is Ian John and the assistant director remissions also presenting today we have dr. Stephen Pape professor and current director and dr. Camille Bryan professor and interim director at Johns Hopkins School of Education so before we get started I would like to cover a few housekeeping topics first today's webinar is being recorded we will be able to share a link with you after the event is complete we welcome you to revisit the content yourself and share with your colleagues or friends who might be interested in the program as well also please take a second to see if your mic is on mute right now please have your mic on you at all times during the presentation there will be a Q&A session at the end of the presentation please type your question in the chat box and dr. Pape dr. Brian and I will read and answer your questions next I would like to share the agenda for today's virtual webinar we will kick off the presentation sharing an overview of the Johns Hopkins School of Education then dr. cape and dr. brian will introduce themselves and discuss an overview and details of the Doctor of Education Program lastly I'll wrap it up with emissions requirements and leave the floor open for questions at the end again please keep in mind to type her questions and the chat box at the end of the presentation to start quick facts about Johns Hopkins School of Education we are one of nine schools at Johns Hopkins University we began offering college courses for teachers in 1909 and then became our own school in 2007 for school enrollment we have approximately 2,600 students we are proud to share that the Johns Hopkins School of Education has consistently ranked one of the top schools and education by the US News and World Report at this time I'm going to hand the floor over to dr. Pape and dr. Bryant they will introduce themselves and present on the Doctor of Education Program hello everybody my name is dr. Stephen pate I'm a professor here in the School of Education and the director of the doctoral education program my research focuses on technology enhanced classrooms context and support mathematical understanding and the development of strategic behaviors at the middle school I also have become very interested in online learning and I've been working in that area as well will be the interim director of the Hopkins Doctor of Education program beginning August 1st I am trained as a research methodologist and so I teach the methods courses and the EDD program and my research interest is in research method self-efficacy of graduate students as well as program evaluation and in particular I'm interested in the role of contextual factors with respect to their role in the implementation of educational programs so I'll reap overview of the doctor of education program if you go back one pc on and here you see images of our students at the orientation residency which we're getting ready to engage our new class as well as our previous two classes so 2017 2018 and 2019 starting this summer I'm starting a Sunday excuse me we meet for three days and we'll talk about this a little while so the main program objective of this EDD is to really support educational practitioners scholars to set high standards for education and to meet the myriad challenges associated with improving learning outcomes in both public and education private education environments including educational industry you this program is really ideal for the experienced practitioner so we are looking to admit students who have some experience with real-world problems of practice within their context of professional practice so in your application this is a big part of the application is the identification of a problem of practice that you have been wondering about within your context or working on within your context we also support students to create powerful interventions based on research informing us about what works within these contexts and in relation to specific aspects of the problem of practice that you identify and finally we hope to we train students to rigorously evaluate these changes within their context the program is 90 credits above the bachelor's degree a master's degree is required and typically is 30 to 36 credits up to 36 credits from the master's degree is transferred automatically and students in addition for an additional six core credits if they have more than 36 credits so a minimum of 48 credits must be completed at johns hopkins university each cohort enters within a specialization and these specializations are described on our website the 20/20 specializations are entrepreneur leadership in education mind brain it's teaching as well as urban leadership and education other specializations that we run every other year or every third year our online teaching and learning which is instructional design and technology integration k16 we are proud of the of the program that we have developed and we're proud of its rigor its relevance to your work within your context and its potential for creating powerful interventions to really look at and to understand problems and to intervene in order to make educational change typically the program is completed in a minimum of three years but students are more and more opting for a four-year option and the dissertation must be completed within seven years of starting the program it is online it's asynchronous with some synchronous support so courses will have several synchronous sessions over a semester and there are a lot of other ancillary supports that work both asynchronously as well as synchronously the dissertation one of the unique aspects of our program is that the dissertation is taken up within the coursework so students who are on track complete chapters 1 & 2 by the end of the first summer after being in the program for three semesters while this is always edited and revised over the full three years the first two chapters we call year 1 paper and we'll talk about these transition points in a few moments the curriculum structure is a core of foundations of 12 credits and then there are some other electives in that area that you can take there are three courses or nine credits in Applied Research and evaluation a specialization area which I spoke about a few moments ago as for courses or 12 credits and then apply dissertation research for nine credits as I spoke about a few moments ago there are several transition points within our program at each of these transition points students are expected to demonstrate compensating mastery in written and oral assessments the first transition point is the young people which is completed after the first summer after be after the first Sunday of the third semester of the program in this paper which is the kernel or the start of chapters 1 & 2 of the dissertation the students are asked to examine factors related to the problem of practice in chapter 1 they do that through the literature the synthesis of the literature existing literature and in chapter 2 through a small empirical descriptive study so in Chapter 1 you are examining factors that we know from the literature might contribute to the problem that you have identified in chapter 2 you're examining whether these factors are in play within your context of professional practice during the second summer students take their comprehensive examination this focuses on the core courses and it is an oral exam students sit with their sit before their dissertation Advisory Committee and are provided for four to five questions that they must respond to orally from the material in the core courses at the same time sometimes concurrently or sometimes afterwards the student is writing their dissertation proposal the dissertation proposal is made up of four chapters the first two that I spoke to moment spoke about a moment ago and chapters three and four chapter three is the literature synthesis related to interventions that might impact the problem or the factors that they've examined in chapter 2 and chapter four is a rigorous evaluation of that intervention finally the dissertation is defended orally and it is at the completion of the program okay so the final and most significant requirement for the EDD degree is the applied dissertation and I would say that the goal for the applied dissertation is to study the problem deeply so you just heard dr. Pete kind of talk about the different components of the apply dissertation but to think about all of those chapters together you're wanting to study a problem deeply within your context and then develop a targeted intervention to address the problem and so this requires that you have a strong understanding of the literature related to your topic and a research methods toolkit to empirically examine the problem in the intervention so this apply dissertation really is a culmination of independently completed but closely interrelated projects in order to achieve that end the projects are embedded within your coursework and distributed across the three years and the focus is on a contextualized problem of practice within the context of your professional practice the apply dissertation is designed for students to make significant change within their professional practice and to also have implications on policy so in order for students to meet the requirements of the program to successfully navigate through those transition points that dr. paint talked about all leading to the completion of that applied dissertation it's really important for us as a program to be intentional about the support that we provide to students and so there are structures that are in place for that purpose so one structure that's in place is the online orientation so prior to students first of all semester they are you would go through this online orientation where you're introduced to the technology that we use in the program library resources research methods foundational topics training on research ethics just to name a few and so you would complete that online orientation prior to matriculating in the fall there's also a face-to-face orientation and a yearly residency involve a face-to-face orientation and residency in Baltimore and so this really is an opportunity for you to meet with peers and your cohort to engage with faculty and to also engage in workshops on various topics to support your work in the program there's also a faculty lead and the faculty cohort lead helps with navigating your courses helping you to kind of acclimate to the program and to provide general support as you're going through the program across these three years there's also an assigned advisor so every student has an assigned advisor that's a sign during your first year of the program and they are essentially a Content expert and so they're providing feedback and as you complete these different dissertation components in your coursework and really serving as your dissertation chair while you're in our EDD program there are also library webinars I'm using well let me go back there's the dissertation clinic and the dissertation clinic is designed to support students in terms of their research methods knowledge and support and so there are various asynchronous and synchronous supports that we provide for students and the same is true for the writing clinic so the writing clinic aims to support students in their writing we know that academic writing can sometimes be challenging and so that support is there for them to help them for their academic writing we also have library webinars our librarians are wonderful about helping students kind of navigate the library resources helping them with developing their literature reviews for the dissertation and then we also have online resources such as the program in cohort sites where you receive information and announcements specific to the program or to your cohort so one of the things that we've talked a little bit about is an orientation residency in the summer this happens in late July so our orientation residency starts on Sunday and so what you saw earlier was just a picture of some of the students and faculty who attended so the online orientation is its mandatory so those topic areas on as I was saying earlier those research methods topics and library resources that online orientation is mandatory for students matriculating in the fall and it usually opens on June 1st for students and it must be completed by the time of the face-to-face orientation residency in order to remain in the program so in addition to that online orientation that's mandatory there's also the face-to-face orientation so this happens and late July as we we talked about it spans the course of three days so students can either come in to come to Baltimore and attend in person it can also be attended electronically from a distance and then there's residency so after your first year you would attend residency and again engage with your peers and faculty to support the work that you would be doing in the upcoming year so you would be attending workshops on a variety of topics to help towards that end so one of the things that I think is really interesting about the EDD program is that students have completed dissertations on a variety of topics and within a variety of contexts and so these are just a few examples of some of the types of dissertations that students have done in our program so a student completed a dissertation on example based learning to develop information search skills in higher education in the Arabian Gulf another student did study a study on hiv/aids infected young adults who are not adherent with their medication another student looks at education for diversity and how to ensure teacher success in reaching culturally and linguistically diverse populations we had another student do a study on entrepreneurship in ascribe Oh which is an egg tech company in Brazil we've had students do Studies on fostering self-regulated learning at an independent school another student looked at advisement models to support community college student Willman and completion and then another student looked at business and education partnership models of Androids so you can see that we offer our students complete a variety of research topics they're looking at a variety of problems within their context looking at these contextualized problems that are addressed by targeted interventions and our hope is that as they graduate and complete our program that they continue to explore problems in this way developing these targeted and organ interventions so that they can make meaningful changes within their contacts all right so now moving on to the application requirements applicants must submit a completed application which can be found on our website keep in mind there is an $80.00 application fee when you submit your application next you would need to submit an updated resume or CV your personal statement should not exceed more than 750 words you'll be focusing on the following questions describe a significant problem or practise relevant to your current contacts a professional practice indicate the importance of this problem within the educational landscape as well as your context of professional practice discuss the potential underlying causes for or contributing factors relating to your problem on process and discuss the ways in which is problem lines with your chosen area of specialization moving on you should submit three letters of recommendation these letters should include at least the following a professor from your master's program you can speak on your competency to conduct rigorous scholarly work and a school or organization official who can attest to your qualifications to pursue a doctorate degree impact on your professional practice and knowledge of and support for your area of research please keep in mind this letter should indicate the school organization officials understanding that you will be doing research within your professional context next the GRE is not a requirement for admissions consideration to the EDD program it is optional for an applicant to submit a GRE test score as part of the application however submission of the GRE times score is an opportunity for an applicant to present additional evidence of the quantitative and verbal skills required for the doctoral level study official transcripts we need up all official transcripts including institutions you may have taken courses but do not receive a degree again this is from all clues secondary attention that you have attended lastly all applicants will be asked to complete a virtual interview after submitting their application so this is a tentative tentative admissions timeline these are key tentative deadlines for next year application will open early September 2019 application deadlines will be around and Jana Mitch and January please keep in mind we will need all supporting material which includes your official transcripts and also your letter of recommendation submitted by the state applications will be reviewed from January to mid-march finally admissions decisions will be release mid-march there are a few additional steps you need to take in order to complete the application process if you are an international student you must submit a 12 for IELTS form if your degree was completed outside of the US you will need to complete a course by course evaluation additional information can be found on our website the base tuition for the 2019 2020 academic school year will be four thousand three hundred seventy three dollars per three credit course for the first year of the program keep in mind this excludes textbook course materials graduation fee and registration fee please no additional fees apply and are charged separately from tuition we encourage you to view our tuition and fees page on our website for the most up-to-date information about tuition and fees so that you can understand the complete picture of the costs associated with becoming a student here at Johns Hopkins School of Education if you are interested in applying for financial aid we strongly encourage you to apply for financial aid when you start to application please note that recommend a submission of the FAFSA application which let's do the Marchman team there are also limited and down scholarships available application for the endowed scholarships which are merit-based which are America please visit our website if you have any questions relating to financial aid you'll find contact information for the office of financial aid and details loans and scholarships that are available if you have any questions relating to your application please feel free to email or call us also this is the address you will need to use to send any supporting material such as official transcripts if you have any program related questions feel free to contact the academic program coordinator Kathy Chao thank you for attending the Doctor of Education virtual webinar at this time dr. cave dr. Bryant and I would like to open up the floor for questions so I see some questions in the chat and I will start with some of them is a requirement for when the master's program is completed no there is not a requirement although we do look for folks who have experience within the field so for the most part the master's degrees are sometimes um five to five years old or older I think the financial-aid question was answered there are both program scholarships that are based on your application as well as the endowed scholarships that are available within the school both need and and the ratings on the application are considered in those areas see on would you answer the question about the TOEFL please yes so the next question is I am a non-native English speaker but I have completed a master's in education visa in the USA do I need an English test TOEFL to demonstrate English ability so for this question I would say you would have to submit and waiver a waiver to waive be TOEFL exam then in your case she didn't complete a master's in education we sell for us you would be able to with the TOEFL exam all right Brian would you like to take a few while you're looking at that does the master's degree me to be in an education field or would any discipline be acceptable yes it is acceptable and we have many students who come to us with a master's outside of the field of Education okay so is there any working experience requirement like the number of years who have worked in the education industry so we don't have a hard and fast policy in terms of the number of years you've worked in the education industry we are looking to see what you're doing within your context and making sure that you're you can do a problem of practice within your context for this degree but they're new there's not a specific number of years that you have to work in the education industry to be accepted in our program okay that's the second question presuming a full 42 credit masters graduate degree transfer they're 448 are necessary is it reasonable that a student could complete the program two years actually not the reason that that is not tip no one has done it in two years it is our our requirement is a full dissertation and that cannot be completed in two years so students come in and we asked them not to think about the intervention for the first year but to really focus on the problem and the factors that might be contributing to that problem within your context the second year is when you developed the intervention literature and the evaluation plan so typically the minimum number of years is three in the next question dr. Brian answer and just for those who are on the phone is there a residency requirement to be able to accept it into the EDD online program I'm not a resident Maryland I'm in Florida so Lindsey the answer to your question is there is no residency requirement our students come all over from the US and also internationally you see that Camille answered that question sorry so Kimberly Harris asks whether or not um there are alternatives to the recommendation letters given that a master's degree was completed some time ago we do understand the situation and we ask that you provide a letter from somebody who can speak to your capability within the doctoral program it is best to have somebody who has instructed on you but there are alternatives such as for example if you have taught an adjunct course at a university that would be fine community or other other alternatives no not that I couldn't go so we really do want three letters one that speaks from your context that helps us understand that the individual understands that you will be collecting data and intervening within your context of professional practice we need somebody who can tell us about your potential for being successful within a doctoral program and then there's a third letter that could be across those two or could be another person from the context it is really important that you have letters that speak specifically to your potential for doctoral work too often applications are denied because the letters are very generic they don't speak to our program or they don't speak to the students potential to be successful we admit students who we want to be successful in the program so the next question from Murray do the letters of recommendation be sealed so when you start your application Murray actually give us the your recommenders email address and there we would from the system it was signed a form and your recommenders would fill out the form and it would come back to us Shakeel your next question can this powerpoint the axis so this powerpoint is being recorded and within a week we would actually be sending this PowerPoint to everyone the next question we have is financially it is financially also available for international students so financial aid is available for students who are u.s. residents and also having a green card here can you honestly to the monthly cost of attendance sure so during the on the tuition slide so the 2019 2020 academic school year per three credit course it is four thousand three hundred seventy three dollars for the first year of the program keep in mind that per year go up about 2 to 2 percent Kathryn asks where the recommendation letters are they an online form or a letter that needs to be submitted um the strongest letters are those that are written on letterhead and submitted as a separate form is we have there is a textbox that may or may not be open sea on we closed that dinner way sorry mm-hmm yes so the your recommend recommenders must submit a letter on letterhead yes uh-huh so Catherine also asked if my professional context our work is changing should I ask my new employer to write a recommendation letter even though the relationship is somewhat new so because you're going to be doing your research within the new context I would recommend asking the newer employer to write the letter of recommendation because we want to make sure that the person in your context is aware that you are going to be doing this research within this new professional context and that they're aware and have an understanding of and can give us some feedback about the work that you would do and our ability within that context to do this type of work and going back to the letter recommendation that I would like to clarify is that I mentioned that you would submit your recommenders email address and a form would be sent to your recommender your recommender also has the option also submit a letter letter recommendation on a letterhead and attach to the form as well the next question we have is how much does the virtual interview factor in to acceptance the virtual interview is part of the application process so we look at your application holistically so one does not weigh more than the other so again like I said we do view your application ballistically so acceptance rate has been between 15 to 20 percent we receive of approximately between 350 and 400 applications see how can you answer Shyam Shyam question about that's hopeful degree in England huh right so any any schools I attended outside of the US you would need to submit a course-by-course evaluation and then again you would have to submit a waiver form for the TOEFL exam to see if you're able to waiver the TOEFL exam the next question is about the three-day residency and initial orientation they are typically at the end of July we have found that since our students come from all of the country as well as international context that the end of July works best for most students how this question is a hard one I think that there are several aspects of our program that make it stand out first the goal is to support the scholar practitioner to understand issues in education from a systems perspective so focusing on broad as well as narrow factors that contribute that might contribute to the problem it is also applied within the context so that students potentially have a significant impact on the context in which they're working another aspect of the program that I think is is important is that the dissertation components or the decision chapters are written sequentially through the courses so course assignments are specifically griten to support a chapter within the dissertation we believe that that increases the potential for students to complete the program another important aspect of the program are the support structures that dr. Bryant reviewed several minutes ago so we have worked hard to understand the obstacles to completing the program and to create support structures for students in order to increase success dr. Bryant you have anything that you might add to that I would just say our focus on the apply dissertation and the fact that you are working on a real-world endtime problem specific to your context and that you are hoping and wanting to make meaningful change through the dissertation process that's the only thing like that that I would add the next question we have is is it possible to discuss the possible tracks from ambery so I would you're speaking about the specialist aprons which is what we call them the entrepreneur in leadership is focused for the educational entrepreneur the Dziedzic partnerships talent management those sorts of those sorts of ideas the urban leadership program is focused on individuals who are in working with in urban contexts and solving issues that they have noticed within urban context all about our program as a whole has a strong social justice perspective but in particularly urban leadership um has a perspective the migrated teaching is really about the learning Sciences on new science neuroscience and its impact on the context and the ability we implement these Sciences within classrooms the instructional design really looks at research around effective online teaching and learning and the technology kasich is about implementing technology within to your learning in there and that's question how interdisciplinary is the program course I would so as Steven said you would apply to a specific specialization but there are opportunities to take courses elective courses from other specializations we also one of your core courses aims to help you understand that understand problems from a variety of perspectives and so we understand that problems can be understood and from different disciplines and so in that way we try to help students to see a problem not within one discipline but across several disciplines the other question about how does the program to find education or non traditional ways of knowing life skills and vocational training for example included in the definition I wouldn't say that we have one definition of education for example one of my advisees is her problem of practice focuses on vocational training and learning and kind of this non-traditional setting and so the more skills based training so I think that we appreciate different definitions and ideas when it comes to this this concept of Education and we want our students to be able to explore that within their work the next question is approximately how many students accepted into the program as each year we accept approximately 20 to 25 students per specialization next question I have a master's in EDS is that where my competition for the extra six hour credit yes that would be correct the next one when we write the problem of practice and the essay do we have to stick to the same problem of practice and dissertation later on it's a really good question what often happens is that students may their problems of practice are clarified better define – they're going through the prop going through this program sometimes the problems are practice to change or they're they become more refined as they're working and trying to understand the problem within their courses and working with their advisers and the cohort lead so you don't have to stick to the state problem what often happens is that the topic is remains the same but maybe the focus or the the problem becomes more refined as you go through the program so the next question we have is is this a one course at a time program though students typically take two courses a semester and in the summer they might even take a three in order to complete the program in the three to four year allotment one course a semester would not allow a student to complete the program in the seven year requirement Nikola is asking masters she has her master's in TESOL after teaching college-level for two years I opened a licensed home child care which I've been run for five years I am interested in studying early education for my minority groups including English Lane while my diverse experiment hurt my application Ison's child care is not always viewed as a professional or King experienced actually Nicolette we have had several students who either own or operate child care centers and they have been very successful in our program next question from Caroline is can I submit a peer-reviewed journal article I have authored to demonstrate ability to write academically and set up to yuri scores and can that can not be used to request for waiver of TOEFL so keep in mind the GRE score is optional and not something that you have to submit and then in terms in regards to the request for waiver of TOEFL you would have to submit an actual waiver in order to leave in order to waive the TOEFL exam so she killed asked I'm also interested in the course why not what would a potential schedule look like in cost so keeping in mind the cost per course students generally take two courses during the fall and spring semesters in the summer you would take two courses and also dissertation credits and those dissertation credits are used for that year one paper working with your advisor later on taking comps and working on your your dissertation proposal so that that's kind of the what the schedule looks like two courses in the the fall in the spring two courses in the summer as well as dissertation credits all right we have ten minutes remaining what are some jobs that people obtain after they receive an EDD program from Johns Hopkins so we are in the process of collecting those data we have had some we have had one student who is just named president of university another student who is named director of research within a medical field but many of our students who are District folks who move within the district so they take on leadership roles within the district many of them are CEOs and they are looking to augment their credentials and their knowledge in relation to the work that they are doing within their their organization I know another woman who moved from staff to the executive director of an institute so there is many different jobs it's it's just it's difficult to even answer the question because of the varied individuals who come to us in their in their and their contextual the context of professional practice vary so much that it's hard to say what jobs they obtain after the degree our application fee waiver is offered unfortunately we do not waive application the $80.00 application fee when you submit your application we're shells and the question is how accessible are advisors if you need support so we pride ourselves on providing multiple levels of support so when you think about support you think about the dissertation clinic you think about the librarians you think about the advisor so there's multiple levels of support depending upon the individual needs typically advisors meet with their students once every other week are and if the student has less need for that interaction at least monthly and there was a question about the monthly cost seon maybe you can speak more to that but just thinking about the number of credit hours that you would take over the course of the year it's about 2,500 a month but see on you can correct me if I'm wrong you probably know more about that so in regards to that question and the monthly payment so again doctor paid by I know you mentioned that typically students take approximately two courses correct per semester yes and then any questions regards to and again all students they fund again turns up their education in school of education differently whether it is through financial aid personal loans so again if you have any additional questions about financial aid be more than happy to connect with you and again talk to you about the question you have it's very important to have a consultation with the financial aid office they are the folks that can help you to think about how you will pay for the program and provide counseling in relation to the overall cost to you and so that that's a really important step in this process absolutely and I do want to mention that you offer a limited number of partial and base institutional scholarships here and that could range anywhere from 500 to 1500 per year and they are applied to tuition expenses beginning in the fall semester all right we have about less than five minutes for questions yeah so Marvin asks about the percentage of a cohort that has a scholarship it's very difficult for for me to say I would say 5 to 10% perhaps and that varies but it is important to submit the FAFSA and if there is need the inbound scholarships are targeted toward students with need and so that is considered a Marine asks about the instructional design for online teaching and learning specialization it is not offered in 2020 sorry um you cannot you can I can't anticipate whether it be 2021 or 2022 when that specialization will be offered Francois asks about the cohort model or do students progress individually our students are admitted as a cohort but students also make the determination that it might be better for them to spread out some of the coursework over several years so if you stay with the program and complete it in three to four years you will be with your color Morgan asks I'm very curious about the potential day today in this program how often my EDD students interact with each other in an academic setting our course lectures held using video conferencing software or is it typically pre-recorded lectures so there are a couple of things that we do in terms of interaction so you we talked a little bit about orientation residency where you would interact with with peers in that way one time in the summer but in terms of the courses so most of the courses are well the courses are designed for more asynchronous learning opportunities and so the lectures are pre-recorded however faculty do hold synchronous sessions where so that would be a live video conferencing opportunity where you're engaging with your instructor as well as other students on something related to the content of the course there's also I'm sure as you you would probably guess with online courses you would interact with students and faculty through the discussion boards as well in the course other any final questions looks like we have one more question that says from jean asking about how much time spent per day in average to fulfill the program sweet it depends course I think you need to anticipate a minimum 20 hours per week you know is that your feeling yeah I would I would agree with that it is an intensive program that is very rigorous oftentimes folks feel that an online program will be less work than a face-to-face program and actually that sometimes is not true because you need to come back to discussion board for example and respond to folks who responded to you there are assignments over the week and there's reading of the week typically our courses are organized in two week sessions so this is just typical it's not every course but the first week is reading and initial engagement with your colleagues the second week is assignments and more interaction on discussion boards or in group work there are some times when you have to meet offline with your group to complete a an assignment so it varies but we have learned that for the working professional one week sessions don't work because it's difficult to both read material and interact so there's kind of a cadence to the courses where you're working on your reading for for a while and then you're interacting either through assignments or through discussion boards alright so the very last question that is 5 o'clock when does the application window open and close so the application will open early September 2019 and then it will be closing end of January alright so at this point thank you again for your interest in the Johns Hopkins School of Education look forward to hearing from you have a wonderful evening everyone and the questions that we were not able to answer again I will try my best to reach out and especially if it's financially limited questions again again we'll have a conversation offline to make sure that we answer your questions all right thank you so much and have a wonderful evening you

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