Co-Learning and Authority

the fifth unit of the co-learning and the co-learning unit for connected courses and tonight we're going to discuss the issue of co learning and its relationship to authority in particular I have some wonderful guests and some wonderful co-facilitators I'll just introduce myself first I'm Mia Zamora I met kaen university as associate professor of English there I direct the cane University Writing Project as well and perhaps Alec would you introduce yourself next as my co-facilitator for sure thanks Mia my name is Alec kurose and I'm a professor of educational technology and media at the university of regina and regina saskatchewan and just very glad to be a here tied to be to be part of connected courses so if you're watching welcome everyone i'm going to pass it over to my esteemed colleague Howard I am Howard Rheingold I am currently lecturer at Stanford University and in 2011 started the Paragons project which joke or Neely and and Charlotte peers have splendidly are continuing to carry forward great Charlotte um would you introduce yourself please sure I'm Charlotte Pierce and i'm an independent publisher in the boston area i'm also the interim president of the independent publishers of new england and that's a consortium of of small independent publishers and authors in them in New England six states but in 2012 I i took Howard's think no tools course online and my you know was just thrilled with the things that were going through my head from that so I met met up with Joe Joe and Joe Cornelia and Charlie Dan off no I mean Fabrizio the one of the the members who kind of went on with on the forums there on the social media classroom right how r desert and and uh they were kind of rattling around wondering what to do and with the project and and so I jumped in and we got started on finishing up the version one or yeah version 1 and then we've met I'll via an out since almost every week there have been times when we haven't done it but we've probably have several dozen videos on the pier Gotti handbook channel on youtube so we we've used it to do what we call hive editing and that's where we all kind of you know below them onto a article or something that's going in the handbook and do synchronous editing whether or not we're on a video or not but sometimes we are all on on the video as well and talking to each other so that I mean that to me is like the ultimate connected learning and it's very it's very thrilling you know very motivating to me and into a few others i think but we're now working on version 3 of the handbook and getting started on doing some of those specific hangouts to develop that great um Joe do you want to UM say hello to everyone and it is yourself yeah hi I'm Joe I live a little bit north of London in England so we've got three countries on one hanger that's pretty good i'm from the u.s. stove from minneapolis so um that's no fancy accent but i've moved to england to do a PhD and initially was the title something like pure supported problem solving and mathematical knowledge which completely morphed into something else that was the ultimate title which i finished was a pure produced peer learning and subtitle a mathematics case study so my backgrounds in mathematics and the case study was a site called planet mass dot org which is still online looking maybe a little better than it was when I started with the PhD project because we rebuilt that but also yeah in the meantime Charlotte mentioned Charlie I was presenting at a wiki that wiki mania in Poland and I met Charlie and then I met him again online i we were both at p2p you as course facilitators and trying to understand that we just decided hey if you sit on mine in on my class I'll sit in on your class and then we can have a kind of back-channel discussion so out of that it developed a kind of increasingly robust perspective on what you're learning could be might be and I ended up developing that in my CSIS and was Howard and you know it took off beyond our wildest expectations when how r got interested in it so that was cool um and so here we are now surprisingly enough I have a job in a computer science department for plot some of these ideas to computers um so all's well that ends well not a booth at fantastic at last but not least Lee would you introduce yourself to please yeah sure my name is Lee scalar alpha set I am what did he call a faculty instructional consultant at the center for the enhancement of learning and teaching at the University of Kentucky Lexington Kentucky originally from Canada to Montreal Earnhardt and about almost exactly five years ago now I found myself unemployed living in the middle of nowhere and really just trying to figure out what I wanted to do what I wanted to keep doing with my career academic job markets collapsed I you know there's aren't really very many options and so I through other means discovered Twitter and began connecting with digital humanists and digital scholars and learning alongside them when I found myself back in the classroom teaching writing which is not what I was trying to do I'm a literature complet PhD I was desperate for a way to learn I had you know no mentors no real Peters and so I was desperate for a way to learn and so I took to Twitter and co-founded what is called first-year composition chatter hashtag fyc chat um and it was a fantastic opportunity to connect with other educators from all different levels graduate students senior professors Writing Center directors to really talk about how do we teach writing how do we do this how do we do this in the class it was just an absolutely phenomenal experience and it completely transformed my pedagogy the way I teach and really informed me but also emboldened me because I had this community of support to completely change my class and change my pedagogy and embrace things like peer learning peer driven learning & Co learning alongside my students um what's what brings me here great um I'm I'm thrilled that we have global representation here in the sense of you know international representation but also we have interdisciplinary representation when we think about this idea of co learning so I thought we could start off with just a very simple question you know what is it what does it mean what is co-learning maybe you guys can chime in about your own personal take on what that might mean because I suspect there are varying understanding varying definitions of what this term might mean well I'll jump in here I I see two aspects to it one is to kind of break out of the paradigm of the individual learner who's sitting in the classroom certainly with other people but but their primary purpose is to collect knowledge to bank knowledge and and they may when directed engage in collaborative activities but they're really there to together in in many cases to compete with the other students co learning is a very explicit commitment to helping each other learn and that requires knowing what the other learners are interested in so that when something comes your way that would be of interest to them you can you can point it out to them the other aspect of co learning that I see is that the instructor is learning along with with the other learners and that requires this kind of renegotiation of authority because I remember and I encounter with other educators that there's a certain amount of fear of saying I want to learn it's in some ways I think that fear is connected with the thought that that's equivalent to saying I'm I don't know what I'm doing is as much as I had pretended we kind of don't show what we don't know and I think for company you need to show what you don't know yeah that's I think that's a key aspect of the notion of learning side by side is is revealing kind of the ignorance is as much as the the strengths and the passions and the interests so um anybody else want to share their personal take on co-learning sure I really appreciate how you brought up the whole thing about banking and the banking concept of Education and to me it's really the co-learning is this learning that does happen alongside the students where you know creer describes the paradigm a traditional or colonial education is that the teacher knows everything and the students know nothing and I that's one of the ones that's always stuck with me the most because I've been in any sort of teaching situation that I've been in since I've moved to the states have always been these situations where I've been forced into a coal earning situation because I've you know girl from you know Montreal and the first place that I teach when I moved to the States as a primarily as a Hispanic serving institution and then I get a tenure-track job at an APC you if historically black college university and then move to rural Appalachia and so all of these situations where I'm confronted you know I'm standing in front of my students who all have had very very different experiences than I do and perhaps because I was Canadian it was very very easy for me and almost expected from me that I'm like look I don't know anything about a lot of what your interests your experiences have been like and so it turned into this really rich co learning opportunity and there was a trust that was developed because of that between myself and my students that always stuck with me even if I wasn't actively thinking about a practicing co-learning that's basically what i was doing and that really created this wonderful environment to the classrooms that you know is it was um now I try to seek to recreate in those kinds of experiences even if I have more in common with the students then perhaps I have in the past I'm struck by that idea of trust um but Joe yeah please share your phone yeah I wanted to weigh in I was gonna I was gonna defer to Howard but he jumped in right away and I think I can defer to him again although I don't remember if I learned this in one of Howard's choruses or not but I've certainly heard of this red queen hypothesis which is a little less of the benevolent view I can just read the idea says that it's an evolutionary hypothesis that proposes that organisms must constantly adapt evolve and proliferate not nearly to gain a reproductive advantage but also simply to survive while pitted against ever-evolving opposing organisms and ever-changing environment so how are mentioned the competitive yeah that the essence of this Red Queen hypothesis is that if your world is not changing very much you don't have to learn very much and you will kind of just stay on your typical path so you don't have to be competing outright I think um you know the story of moving around from different different venue to different venue with different cultures and having to learn maybe even how to communicate people that Lee was just saying is probably an example I'm sure she was learning a lot I don't know if I want to go to say more than our students but I hope that she was learning a lot and the hope for students were learning a lot as well and maybe even um that was sparking something there so I think there is there's definitely the room for the benevolence in that um but you know also just adapting to a changing world will will do it and of course in an evolutionary sense when you're adapting to the changing world well the world's probably adapting to you too so the students were no doubt aware hate our teachers actually learning something and is curious about us I'm curious about the culture of the Rin um that's kind of cool so you know they probably respond well to that I wouldn't mind asking kind of a mean I question that pops up with that because I think you know the environment changing around us in the in and the evolutionary nature of this is that I think you know the the affordances of technology certainly move us to change in the end the sort of the i guess the reapplication heightening of the concept of networks in the way that we learn but it's it's interesting that all of this is happening when we still have this you know formal schooling infatuation over individual achievement so it's kind of an odd place right now for eco we're learning is something I absolutely a CO and peer learning is something they certainly see is a sort of a natural extension of how we learn certainly from a network theory perspective but it's interesting that you know I'm you know I'm continuing to find you know where we actually bump up against sort of resistance towards news peer learning models is often complicated by the the situation that we are in in terms of again the sad infatuation over individual achievement and you know everything we do the grade comes down to one person and so it's it's often you know why should I bother with this does it just because it makes us all smarter doesn't perhaps you know I it seems like a lot of work to to also contribute to the learning of others as well then you know just myself so the entity I don't know if anyone has comments on that but it's just I do think it's an evolution peace but no what drops off do we know continue to evolve towards this way and then eventually the formal educational piece sort of falls off at some point like a you know like our tail I think it's a geckos oh I'll make a comment from the Paragon experiences the handbook creation and learning how to produce the book basically but i know that when Joe was heavily involved in the first edition and the second edition and and then got busy doing his thing and we were all kind of floundering around hoping Joe would show up you know and kind of lead our sessions or just you know initiate something and we've basically I mean just kind of come out of that because there's a collective desire to continue as a project and we we've spent quite a few sessions lately figuring out how we're going to do that I mean we I think people sort of it's a constant mindfulness of not looking to the camp counselor to you know lead the song around the campfire and so we had a session today and we were floundering around and find you know finally we just gotta a document up a planning document and wrote down a few things nice I can share the screen for a second this is 0 this is my website collaboration this is a new competition that's my new motto and oh here's our our our document from today we sort of hive edited that and Doug Breitbart one of our editors he says that was his his watch weird was no camp counselors but up we wrote down who who we were you know what we were going to hope to achieve and this is a kind of the seed of a real practical hand a guide to the two pura gaji that we're going to hopefully produce but right I think you know the being mindful of not going to your natural default to to the camp counselor is important and then that's a you know I'm teaching a grad corazon and undergraduate course and and I find it it's actually I don't know which ones more difficult to sort of bring about this particular model because no we we try to I mean we focus first on getting students to establish their connections but it sad but as you say I mean going back to that camp counselor model you know they continue to see no me to do something and I'm you know I'm certainly could can default to that role but it's difficult to know when you're convicted convinced that this is a better way that this is a much more sustainable way of learning that this is a necessary sort of mindset outside of high red you know for our teachers as well you know I teach teachers and undergraduate students it's it's it's hard you know you want to kind of dig in your heels and say this is gonna work but you know it's I mean we still get students at say well just tell me what I need to do like I know times you will want me to comment on a forum or you know just you know I want it to be counted so I can just check off a box and it's it's really hard to do before Joe what Howard was you know and and then Howard was off doing other stuff and and we were sort of missing him you know so there's there's always this tendency I think maybe it's we're just kind of in the evolutionary like a link phase till we get work well in fact I think if both with the the students the younger students and ourselves there's a lot of training that we sort of have to go against the grain in that regard and I remember with the Paragon project i was very I mean these were all people who did not know each other the interesting thing about the project was it started out with an invited lecture at Berkeley they had involved a number of graduate students and faculty there and we met in person twice and I brought my laptop and I opened it up to collaborate and using Twitter I said anybody in the world wants to join us come to come join us and you know within a couple of months all of the faculty and graduate students from Berkeley drifted away and people from about I guess seven or eight different countries drifted in and none of us knew each other and and it started working and I wanted to step away and take the training wheels off and enable people to do this without me but I get I don't know whether I ever told you about this Joan and Charlotte but david preston who was part of the group at the time really kind of kicked my ass he said you can't do that not ready to do that yet so i came back in a little bit but i think that um again the co-learning there's some deprogramming that's involved with the learners who are expecting to be told what to do so I think yeah there's unlearning involved with co learning mmhmm yeah exactly laughs it's often enough you can tell them you're going to be able to do this and they will take that direction eventually and is it is the best hmm sorry i was going to jump in on a couple different dimensions but no go ahead yeah the thing is now we're also doing very different things you were using different platforms working on you know we have a book written so you know catching it up people when new people come along there always concerned to catch up and like those different things they would want to catch up with and stuff but i wanted to market a different book which I a guy you is this one doesn't really need it though it's a new york times bestseller nurture shocked by Poe grunts and I read another book by amis really good writer um but this chapter 8 can self-control be taught it seems really related to what we were just talking about the only sad thing about it is that chapter focuses on pre-k and kindergarten students so it's never a lot it's a really inspiring chapter and they basically talk about this tools of the mind program which is like I don't know it really reminded me of Howard and you know that's what Charlotte was talking about you know taking these kinds of tools for the mind but one of the things they really focusing focus on it's like getting people to imagine what they're doing you know so instead of just saying go play they get the kids to sit down and plan out what they're going to play on what they're going to do and stuff like that so even that document at charlo is just saying is like okay you know who I'm on what am I going to do what is my role here how can I envision that happening like this thing that that program when they did a side-by-side study um like the kids were doing better in standardized testing their IQs were higher at a test entire sign me up you know hit in the same school yeah I know how can I time travel back to 22 don't take it like that I'm trying to think how to make something tools for the mind approach to well it didn't David Preston's his Fink's thing would the students would just come in and and basically kind of discover what they were supposed to learn that day or what they would design it and they but they you know would come in in various states of resistance to that idea and I think I mean I saw a video of Howard in you know kind of flipping his classroom to and I seems to me that you know your group needs to be kind of informed that you are expected to generate something doesn't matter if it's a mistake or the wrong thing you know just you're expected to kind of get together collaborate and come up with with a project or a course of learning but it's teams another sort of under I mean another kind of foundation of co learning is the is inquiry inquiry driven engagement in learning so and and what you're saying about play and and the small ones children really rings home for me in a very personal way because I have two small children and they both recently you know they're in elementary school now but when they were in preschool they were part of a preschool that followed the Reggio Emilia curriculum which is essentially a child-centered curriculum where they they notice things and start asking questions and then the teacher kind of responds by continuing to press those questions until the child essentially articulates the curriculum for the day which turns into the month which turns into the year and it's all having to do with projects based on their own reflections and questioning so it's really powerful this is what they do with the little ones but then by the time they get through grade school we see this hidden curriculum of right and wrong answers you know children's imagination is being hemmed in assessments take over there's it's a profound sort of shifting in what learning means and what learning can be and it's it's a shame because then when we try to in state co learning in a higher ed context or later on in their educational career they're lost at sea and I think that's fascinating that as chill as very small ones in the early childhood development we there is Theory around the idea that they know the right the question that they can lead their way through discovery but then after that somehow they have to listen to a master and and be sort of thwarted in that process Ollie earlier on you wanted to say something and I haven't forgotten you wanna jump in it goes back I think to what it pulls in well to what you were saying because one of the another catalyst for me too was I have to really young children as well and particularly my daughter who had such a thirst for learning and wanted to learn all of the things um all at once but just this real thirst for learning and then you know going in and teaching my freshman writers and there's just you know dead-eyed stairs and I'm seeing there going oh god when does this happen to my daughter and one how can I make it stop and how can I like stop this from happening or I don't want to say fix that sounds too didactic but like where how can i get that five-year-old back like the five-year-old back in these in these kids that I know existed um and so and so that that really got me thinking and one of the things that oh it said that um I was talking about is how do we do this and I always would tell my students this is probably the hardest class you will ever take you know this freshman writing class but it'll be hard in a way that you've never experienced before and that's why it's gonna be hard right that it's a different kind of hard work that I'm asking you to do you know and I might not call it unlearning to them and I might not use those particular terms but I tell them you know uh you know this is going to be difficult for you because you have been schooled on the prod the proper way to learn whereas I'm just asking you to take the lead and trust again I bring up trust because they really think that I'm tricking them for like the first three weeks that is this is she's not serious she's tricking us there's really a right answer that she wants us to give Frankie maybe if we just give that this will this will stop and we can go back to what we're used to oh but make it stop it's always and it's interesting to me the first one who embrace the sort of co-learning in the peer driven environment that I'm trying to get going in the classrooms the ones who embrace it the first are always the sort of smart alecky probably troublemakers mm-hmm right the ones who would walk into a normal class and like this kid is going to be trouble because they're gonna you know stand up to me you're going to back talk they're going to do all of those kinds of things where is once i give them co-learning they're just like a they're pushing me but be there also just like really I can do this is what I've been waiting for my entire one home thank you and then they become leaders in that way because it's just sort of like finally a style of learning that I can really embrace and get behind and fry them so that that's really cool do you think you could invite some of the students day to edit the pure gadji handbook and would they get excited about that because I think that now I'm going to switch to trying to market the pure gaji handbook or maybe the pure gaji prosperous oh and um you know it's like well we don't yet have as any teacher say taking the book and I must have returned someplace know where it is any other room anyway yes Charlotte I'm sure you can wave a copy around you know we have that we have a book we don't have anyone who's big adopted it it's a classroom text though um you notice but we have a bookstore in New York that wants to carry it cool you can buy them in New York it's big in New York once it once if we can make it in New York we can make it anywhere but yeah and how do you make it with we we can make it everywhere it sounds like she travels from places places okay well you're a cute little teaching first Kamala tell you things like that yeah if I got quite a hard I would be doing it like I it's there's an irony to being in a center of teaching and learning where they take you out of the classroom right you're such a good teacher and how many happen times does that happen and even the k-12 system we have a great teacher you're such a great teacher now come out of the classroom and you will now do curriculum development or you and I'll do professional development um you know and there's something to be said about teaching the teachers in that sense but um you know um david preston has I mean Howard may know more about about this but I think he's got a you know his his success is so good that he can keep doing this stuff in the classroom but it's not necessarily sanctioned and in the curriculum in a school well David with david preston is fortunate in that the principal is behind what he's doing and I introduced him to another high school teacher by the name of Don metric who has it a similar class is it's called innovations and it's totally up to the student what project to take on and then the teacher will help them learn what they need to learn to do that um and somehow or another the word gets around and the students are ready to do this these the students from a small school just outside of the Indianapolis have come to Stanford twice and talk to my Stanford students and really woke them up you know if these kids from a small small town in Indiana are able to take their learning into their own hands well yeah I guess you know what our teachers been talking about we can do that somehow or another once once you can get them to do it you create some kind of field and and but I think it requires either benign neglect or support from the administration and and you need a couple of those students to take the lead once you get a couple of lead learners are willing to jump jump in the water and and swim then it happens it's like this love of of taking charge of your learning is it's very innate it's just so suppressed there's a question that's coming in from Twitter that I think is interesting from at sm stat how can we build more trust for our students the word trust has come up a few times today or this evening and you know I think that's something that's rather difficult or tricky I just thought maybe you guys had some ideas about that idea of trust in a coal earning environment hmm I think normally have that mm-hmm I I can add a little bit to that I think I'm actually a colleague of mine just retired actually this year dr. Richards we're from University of Saskatchewan he's done a lot of work on communities of practice and you know what sort of what conditions create a community and Trust is one that comes up every single time in terms of building whether it's a terrestrial or an online community and it but I think what we're seeing here is I mean that that idea of lead learning is probably a big part of this whole trust thing is is actually modeling learning for oneself so being able to see a success whether it's a legitimate peripheral participation or some something where you're you're you know that that instructor again goes away from that more directed and directed sort of knowledge transfer mode into something that actually models learning and I think I think Trust is built through seeing others become successful in the model that we're expressing so whether it's you know whether it's that lead learner I mean I still think there's you know there's always going to be some sort of hierarchy within an organized graded type assessment you know if we're looking at something that's institutional so you know rather than take on that role as being the you know the bearer of all knowledge become a lead learner or not something that we talked about a lot and I think that works out really well in a in a in building trust in I'm building trust in and sort of in that sort of model and I think no I've used a number of different examples over the time where students are also you know and then this is becomes cliche after a while but I mean being being able to and willing to fail in large audiences I think that's really kind of amazing peace amongst all of this and I do think it leads to trust I mean being able to fail miserably online and survive does allow you to build some trust over time and to be able to see others and their success of actually bouncing back and learning more I think that really makes a big difference in terms of creating trust and one last thing I think is just I mean we talked about this last week but one of the things that I think helped in the epic project or the MOOC that we created we talked last week of around that lip dub we created an introductory lip dub and that that little piece allowed a lot of people to share a little bits about themselves even if it was just them lip-synching to a couple words so Cree creating some sort of introductory environment that allows people to take small risks that end up in great benefit I think also allows to to build some trust so I've talked long enough about that but i'd like to hear others i was just making a note that in the in the peerage a process that they trust there's an element of trust when we do a collaborative or synchronous editing on documents because someone can just change what you've done and but you have to kind of accept it that eventually it will be able to merge into a better document yeah and also as it just occurred to me that like Howard does this and we've tried to do this with it post in the post Howard era providing several avenues to express not just like this where we're kind of trying to gauge who's talking and when you can get your word in and stuff but you know that typing in the in the chat all these different ways forums communities and then if you have a facility facilitator or a number of facilitators a co-facilitators la um make sure that you acknowledge those people those contributions I make you know do that little sort of radar scan of what people are you're inputting it's someone may not be comfortable talking in this kind of a way but in they may contribute something critically valuable in in another way so you know making sure you check in on those different platforms and venues yeah yeah I think I mean even from the live editing there's also the asynchronous anything I mean we have our master copy of the pure gaji handbook is a blog basic it's a wordpress site anyone who has access to that so I can have anything on the site and basically just assume that every edit is going to be an improvement and the more edits the better oh yeah then someone will come along and correct it if it's wrong we've been tried to put in more controls and more of an editorial process at times but once someone has access to the site we start of trust um so how do you build trust I think you just pass people but I'm a little I'm a little cynical but of that I was thinking about this other project which is this field notes for 21st century the Orestes from Cathy Davison who I don't know you may mom so I'm not going to say much about it except that they use a by ncsa license which to me is just like no don't go there I instantly kills my ability to use that stuff nom but that said they built the community and their their their have trust within that community and not outside of it so I think when you're talking about trust you have to you have to keep in mind that it's you know it's not you're not talking about world peace you're talking about trust within a specific community and I think for those authors are for the people that they want to share with under the terms of that license that looks fine so you know um yeah maybe that's helpful just to think about who's tough your wish to Papa Roach and it has to build trust amongst you know becoming a community is how they started off in this book enough so it seems like really cool idea how a class becomes a no I have a question for that like why did you sit is the share alike license part of that the part that you know or well no it's the NC part of it I'm MC it is basically not a not a free license it means that for example we couldn't take material we certainly couldn't take material and put in the pure God you handbook and then sell the handbook because next commercial use even though our licenses public domain we're interested to allow anyone to use it for any / because they could put material from our book into their blog and sell copies of that no problem so fix it um we take a bit of radical stance um but yeah it's again it's a kind of a trust issue I suppose that we were hat and I don't think I can't say that we've ever really detected that anyone stolen the paragon handbook and claimed it as their own you know it just doesn't just too hard to do I think you know no it's true I did my name depot to me he would take a paper that I wrote Charlie and massively remixed it and put their own name on it but you know how the people do in academia anyway all the time so it's hard to tell if that's illegal or just uh you know typical we're just or just good researching skills what better than to join the handbook I thought that would have been the most cynically um friendly thing for me to do but I didn't I'm sensing the trust in this is not so much about trust in other people but trust in the process that fingering your co-learning is much better than it's a better process like even in the cynical the cynicism that you you know just play around the not free license is a bit about that in terms of you know trusting or not trusting the system that free will continue to be free you know in that sense I mean even something like a share alike is share alike is a bit of a trust in the system that you would share you know that you would actually share that same sort of you know that the process actually works the product the process of attribution building upon other nike is is actually a viable system that continues to further knowledge and further the attribution and lineage and you know sort of that knowledge that will actually and become better part of the community I often find like that when I've worked with some of my colleagues academics on on papers for instance it's less about you know going into a Google Doc and deciding to make changes and it's not that you know they want to it's not it's not that they don't like I guess doing it but I think there's this real reluctance to overwrite someone else's ideas or if you're basically taking a very bold statement that my idea my phrasing of over this is better and and I think to say that or to feel that you know that you are actually improving someone else's ideas is really tough in an academic culture let your actual remitting someone else's phrasing or thought or idea in something like that when you're actually hoping that you know you trusting in the process I mean there's a lot of trust in that process that the editor is actually making a change that is better and that ultimately this document becomes better and i think that's that can be scaled in a way that idea has a metaphor that you know all together this peer learning piece is for the betterment of our communities and the betterment of knowledge in academic communities or the on k-12 systems or whatever else well and i think it makes perfect sense i mean think about it of course the students don't trust the system of rightness that's where we need to do it and the students know that co-learning works because most of their informal learning takes place in coe learning environments how do they learn and share their hobbies and their interests around whatever pop culture or thing that they have they join teens they join groups they join I mean the extracurricular activities are the things that are usually the most fun about school through the k-12 system those are the co learning environment so they know right they know they might not know their peers very well in the classroom but usually they can look around the room and find their common shared interests and now I know that t-shirt or I know that band or we're on this team together it really is the system once they enter the four walls of the classroom there's a certain set of expectations shins that they all have that involves in the co-learning outside and coming in and saying this as a classroom so you know you really do have to get them to trust in the system because they have been as I keep saying schooled to believe that there's one right answer that they're all in competition with one another ones that are etc so you know it's it's really important that would be you know that's why i say i try to model the good behavior and you know like almost like being a good parent if you follow through you do what you say you say what you two so that they believe you because they know it works yeah yeah there's the other psychology thing in this in this book which I'm not a parent but I found it quite a quite revealing thinking about my own not so long ago child it is these kids not only do they learn from each other but they spend a lawful out I'm trying to make their parents happy and while you go into the classroom teacher becomes the parent and they try to make the teacher happy yeah um you know and I think another theme of this book is it is totally possible to teach kids good to peer relationships and that would be the case like if they have siblings there's a whole chapter devoted to teaching siblings how to get along with each other and not and get a lot out of that relationship because they may not even have siblings and they may fight or they may find the sibling boring and they don't interact so how do you teach them to get something out um so I think yeah I kids are almost infinite infinitely malleable but um I think the defaults are not necessarily or say that cultural defaults are not necessarily very wholesome you know kids learn you know like I don't know yeah drugs crime you know they don't learn good habits you learn bad habits um you know and it's a lot to ask anyone to enter intervene in that so that I think learning to trust the system would also be like well you know um what do I get you know what do I get out of it there's another some great things in this book like little gems like popular kids are more likely to have drug problems perfect sense actually when you think about the nature of peer pressure um things like that so mmhmm yeah I was I'm thinking about what Lee said earlier about the the kids that take to a co learning environment um you know quicker and there are typically the ones that you might also think I would have in another environment in a traditional environment be the troublemakers on the other side of that very same spectrum I think that often the students that are most resistant to the co-learning ironically are the ones that are you know people pleasers and also I find I'd also teach teachers I find that a lot of the teacher the those who want to be teachers are the ones most disoriented by co-learning which in many ways is very disheartening to me in terms of thinking about the future of Education so one question I want to throw out perhaps our last question because we're getting closer to the end of the hour we have about 10 minutes left the question I want to ask you is why co-learning now what is it about education in this day and age and the convergence of the technological advantages we have in this moment in the early 21st century where we're considering this notion of co learning as a centerpiece to something called connectedness and connected learning you know what role my co learning play in a networked learning environment that's a sort of I guess it's two questions why co-learning now at this moment this juncture and the second is what role does it play with in a connected learning experience I'll do that's the first one because for most people those who aren't separately dedicated independent learners schools of adamant Leon learning until very very recently now I challenge you go go to youtube and type in how to anything and you will find a 14 year old who will tell you how to do that um they know that they can learn all kinds of things of the things that they want to learn online that didn't exist a thousand years ago 100 years ago or 20 years ago um I I think that that we need to think about I mean the students that I'm getting in in my classroom college students the web has always been there they live in a world in which the web has been there increasingly we will be facing students coming into the classroom who know that a lot of learning can take place of in a cooperative voluntary way right now there are probably a million people helping each other play games I may be under estimating that bite by a large amount so that's you know my take on the first part of your question well I think Joe also hit the nail on the head to when he said you know when we're not faced with a lot of change we don't need to learn very much and you know this particular time period you know is is a monumental amount of change a lot of it very positive but some of it very worrying and stressful and so um you know the old schooling isn't working it's failing us in this change we know I think instinctively and explicitly that this can't keep going on the way it is and and so we've looked too because of the internet because we can google anything on YouTube suddenly we're saying okay wait a minute you know these two things are happening simultaneously and so you know we need to change this we need to do better we can do better we have the technology to we have the technology Jim we have the technology to make it better um and so they are you know that's that's the 14 year old you know like I said who are already coal earners when they leave the classroom um they know that there's a better way and now us old geezers are being forced to see it as well because we know and we see that the old paradigm just isn't working anymore so I think that's one of the one of the reasons i would say that why now is you know now it's just this kind of perfect storm of change and uncertainty that is forcing us to reevaluate i think that that's really interesting i would have a challenge Howard to say maybe 20 years ago some people were we're doing it but but now more people are doing so you know nothing it's a you know and what's really cool about now is like you know you can connect with people you know out of interest your communities of interest can actually include almost anyone rather than just kind of being specialized clones ho going back about the community thing but but I want to say something I know we're short on time so i think i have a really interesting and weird perspective on this question right now because i'm like a computer scientists and I've studied also social media stuff so humans are doing and I think we has lots of reasons about why we should you know we can read the news we can talk to people around the world it's really exciting um and but I think even in science you know you look at all these authors like hundreds of authors on physics and LG papers um but if you look in computer science it's really less and computer scientists are very geeky and where there are the ones who specialize on these tools that we're talking about oh this technology mean computer technology um and I would say from I kind of I don't know if I call privilege but weird position in that field that that were not much further along in that field and then we were in 1950 you know with during and so forth so you know it's like um I mean of course computers are much faster they're more ubiquitous and so on and so forth but the actual field of artificial intelligence and what computers can do is is really limited so computers are good at things like chess they're good at things like what is this jeopardy they're good at jeopardy now and they're great for email and whatever goes beyond email like hangouts and stuff but actually getting them to talk to each other is what I'm really interested in and I would say they're kind of singularly bad at that umm so so it to me it's coming through the net of social social stuff that we do into the world of computers and saying well we can be inspired by what people do I think about how computers could change things that's my own personal not day job thing but Tom but I guess I find it fascinating that computers are so distinctly bad at doing we're all going doing right now and are probably good at doing so humans naturally want to talk to each other are naturally curious um and there's nothing about computers that really will do that unless we tell them hey this is a good idea and we make it possible so i would say someone who can speak was already on it i think we're just starting to understand really the fury of you know of how to make systems more collaborative i mean really you know like vygotsky probably is one of the most prominent people who did that before but you know I think there's that there's a theoretical there are theoretical advanced is not just in practice but um yeah stay tuned because I even I'm not really sure where that's welcome to come um yeah that's it so we get about five minutes um does anyone want to sort of offer some closing thoughts that are important about co-learning in the last five minutes Charlotte well well I was just going to flash up another project that we're doing here through the pier gaji we've developed we've been running these peer gaggia accelerators and it's kind of an evolving process where we take an issue and work on it in our hangouts but this is like a woman had a graduate student in Nepal had had contacted me and I don't even know how she found me through google plus i guess or facebook i have another friend in nepal who's kind of in this field he works for the the Jane Goodall Foundation which so we've been running these accelerators we're going to do our third one this week and I could have helped her brainstorm with her about how to keep her project going she's she's uh I don't know if you can read it there but investigating how to merge modern science with with the indigenous sustainable practices so I mean this is like this is something like you know and we went through a slide show they had taken pictures and videos of of their field research something that we would have never been privy to on this intimate level and you know before the this technology enabled it so it's just very exciting and I my son is a college student and I think he's going to join us this week too so you know it's it's exciting you know this it allows us to to to reach out and understand our world and make it better yeah the classroom is no longer bound by four walls that much is obvious in your example yeah and I think you did it's also the flexibility but technologies that you know we moved from platfrom platform and tool to tool and project to project as yeah I'll like to come on I'll try to get my aunt to junkies in Nepal right now so that's the other thing yeah 9am eastern intro to Phil you oh cool clusters or local stunters you know if my aunts are talking to this woman you know that's nuff people to go and have a cup of tea and they can then start organizing things locally in Katmandu or whatever you know around their interests not to get around puri cocky huh oh I think so I think the technology lets us we make connections in in our solo lives but then Joe and I got together when I was in London this in Scotland this summer and it was just like you know we were just like had never seen each other in real life before but we were we were kind of like already in the stream you know we were already buddies so you know it was kind of yeah it's nice tits too Goodman bout you know I've been involved in other open-source kinds of free software stuff for quite a while now um and you know I've always needed an effort to meet people in person but I like 3d is it such a different feel yeah everything isn't good it is that it is a nice to meet people and you know that when you don't have that person-to-person connection you lose a lot of humanity and people will be really mean to each other I don't think we're that something i did want to get one last word in about co-learning which is that it multiplies your learning the teachers got a curriculum but the more you reveal about what interests you and what kind of problems you're trying to solve and the more the others you're learning with understand that you're multiplying the number of teachers it's let you know I I guess it's the mathematics of it is its factorial is you've got 20 people in the classroom each one of them has an idea of what the other 19 people are interested in that's a potentially once that catches on so much richer and exciting then even the best teacher trying to to to get that knowledge across to those those 20 people and to me that's the ultimate excite excitement of cold learning it's it's why the web and online communities are so exciting mm-hmm I think that's a fantastic note to close out on as we're at the hour now I just want to thank everyone so much for this conversation which seems to just be the beginning of something in many ways you know I'm my mind is effervescing with all kinds of questions and ideas we're going to have another webinar as part of the co-learning unit five part of connected courses and that'll be on Wednesday night and we will hear from Cathy Davison and some of her students who made that field guide that Jojo had mentioned earlier as well as david preston and some of his students and the kinds of innovative things they're doing in his learning context so you know we have the conversation will continue beyond this chat but again thank you so much all of you for your insights and your enthusiasm this evening I think some of the highlights for me were the question of trust you know obviously we talked about authority and relinquishing it and the question are the issue of unlearning and I also liked how we kind of dug into the roots of learning at an early age and how that informs how we might learn when we become older and the kinds of obstacles and barriers we experience as we evolve and in an educational system and certainly I can see the timeliness of co learning in the 21st century as educational paradigm shift and we consider what learning means in a new context in an open horizon for all of us so with those closing comments again a big thank you to the four of you are the five of you excuse me and I wish and we were all right I wish everyone a good night or in Joe's case good morning

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